Go Ace!
+100 Ace. Cam timing marks are ONLY for reference. That is NOT what Ferrari means as the recommended way. You time Chevy's with timing marks. And Fords, Mopars, Honda's and virtually every other run of the mill machine on the planet. And for 98% of the people thats good enough. However, you dont time Jaguars, Lamborghini's, Maseratis, or Ferrari's that way unless you really dont care or give a damn. Degreeing camshafts is a performance method of nailing down the valve timing to a higher standard. It what racers do with Fords and Chevy's and Mopars and they smoke everyone who dont know how. Its what racing teams do to achieve the maximum level of performance. At the diameter of the camshaft where the index mark is located, one degree of rotation at the crankshaft will move the index mark .004". This is of course, provided the index mark was placed properly to begine with. And also, that the index plate at the flywheel was located properly. Yes, the car will run "okay" timind by the marks. It will even run sort of okay if its off a bit. But why the hell would someone buy such a high performance machine, pull the motor out to work on it, then cut corners? Personally, if I am a buyer and a seller tells me the car was serviced, I want the car serviced "by the book". So just so everyone understands each other, by the book means degreeing the cams. If you dont want to bother servicing the car properly, just make sure you own up to it when you deside to sell it, because without doing the work correctly its the same as not having been serviced.
OK (OMG why am I doing this again, like facts make a damn bit of difference??) now lets lay the facts out. I have done before and after cam timing on every 355 (as well as every post 328 Ferrari) I have done since 95 when I had to do the first one under warranty. I know how much the belts stretch and how much the cam timing changes depending on various factors and over differing periods of time. I know from dyno readings how much HP and torque was picked up on a 02 360 after the cam timing was adjusted with the engine in place on a car that never had emissions issues. I have pulled many a TR engine that passed emissions but had a taste for eating converters and know how much of a cam timing variance it takes to do that. I know first hand how long it takes for belts to stretch and what the cam timing change is on a 348 with IRL cams running at 9500RPM and just about every variance one could think of on an F-40. That is what I do know and consider it hard earned propritary data that I do not share but would be more than happy to say yes or no to how much you Think things change. It took many years of doing many cars to achive a data base with meaningful numbers that showed enough of a trend to be useful from a research prospective. Chris, You made some hard statements to justify and sub standard style of wormanship (Freudian slip)in my opinion, and HELL NO, that is not Cam Timing plain and simple. Everyone has the choice on how they want to service their own cars and in some cases I respect what ever they do so long as it is for themselves and not tring to pass it off from a service prospective. What I do object to is someone passing along their opinion and stating it as fact when evidence proves it is false. There are many reasons why the 355's got a bad reputation regarding engine reliabilty, you just raised one. A great many professional techs in this business happen to agree with you (Not all major services are done to the same standards, yet the prices all seem to be in the same ballpark?!) I for one do not and have data to support my opinion on this matter. Dave
Ain't no perk, believe me. It's why I have less hair after a quarter century of being in this business. Don't have to worry about that on the Mondial/TR/348/355. Drops out the bottom in less than a day's work. I do cringe thinking about the Daytonas and 3X8's that I've done, though... Thank you, Ace and Dave. Chris, no offense, but get another job, please.
Absolutly +1 on this...... I am amazed this thread has gone this far, these questions have been raised over and over so much I honestly do not usually comment anymore as I don`t think anyone is really listening or taking the advise. Bottom line is that the ONLY way to properly service the 355 engine is to drop the sub frame. Any other way is just sub-standard and for sure the Quality of the service will be in serious question. As for cam timing, the only way to get it right is with using the degree wheel, the timing marks on the cams are ONLY for initial assembly. This is after all a Ferrari, It is an investment, and when comes time for you to resell, I am sure you will want top dollar. I hear so many other threads where customers are looking to buy a used ferrari and are so critical on the seller as to what servicing was done and how it was done. If you were going to buy your car again, would you seriously concider purchacing a car that the owner was looking for every available avenue to save a buck on the service? There is a mountian of experience on this site telling the same story....Why not just take the advice and end it. Best regards, Jim
Dittos to you and to Dave, Ace, FBB, RD, etc.. There are still a few who understand what doing a job correctly means and entails. But sadly, there is so much of this going on, threads arguing how long belts last and how to get around maintainance, that it would be in the best interests of those looking to purchase one of these cars to completely disregard all previous maintainance. Unless you personally know the individual who did the work, and could swear on your name you trust they did the job 100%, assume nothing. In my humble opinion, anyone who posts, or has posted something supporting this nonsense, should be watched carefully like a hawk. And anyone buying a car from those particular individuals should proceed with caution. IMHO, as well as I believe those named above woud support, among others, a Ferrari is not some POS daily driver. We prescribe to the principle to treat the car as a one would treat a fine mechanical watch. When maintainance is due, it is to be done thoroughly and reassembled with as much care and attention to detail as when it was originally built. Far too many individuals today, and each day more appear, have no concept of maintaining anything and all approaches to it are as simplistic and shoddy as could be imagined. If a person cant come to this forum and do some searching on these issues and figure it out, and figure this out, they arent a mechanic. And isnt it funny that people who arent mechanics have the audacity to try and explain their misguided knowledge to those of us who are. Some of you believe this subject will be answered, I do not. I believe this trend of corner cutting and shoddy workmanship will continue and more and more of these fine cars will get the full measure of defered and/or shoddy maintainance. These owners have no shame. Except in the case where you personally know who serviced the car, and trust them completely, anyone in the market for a Ferrari would be very wise to buy only cars with maintainance due, and see that it gets done to YOUR satisfaction. Lord knows what kind of hacks have been tinkering with it in the past, you will want a fresh start to your new found masterpiece.
Dave, Adam, Jim, just who are you guys to be telling some internet expert how to service a 355 anyway? By my count including me we are looking at between 100 and 120 years combined experience and a whole bunch of it in dealers. Just guessing on Jim because we have not personally met that I can remember. Seem to recall saying something about the debate this always turns into about 22 posts ago. Well at least the internet is consistant and predictable.
This is too funny. Some of you guys (and you know who you are) are paranoid about a simple timing belt procedure. We will have to agree to disagree on this topic. Take care all. p.s. my cam timing is dead on and I will be replacing my belts again, this winter, during my engine out.
"Some of you guys (and you know who you are) are paranoid about a simple timing belt procedure. We will have to agree to disagree on this topic." I agree, you were spot on with your NSX procedure/process as well...I got tired of belts and moved on though!
This should be a stickie: if nothing more than to lay it to rest. Why persons continue to follow questionable advice, is beyond me. I have pulled the engine of a 348 once: Not that bad. Also suffered, in my early days, the results of a 'qualified' Ferrari mech who once serviced a 348, for its 30k service, where it was so f&&ked up that I drug it to factory dealer to square it away....don't ask me what that cost. AND having dealings with at least one of the persons here: I know what experts are the hands down to follow.
Rik, During what year and month during your "early days" did you take your 348 to the factory dealer to square it away?
Paranoid about a simple timing belt proceedure?? Not at all... You got the proceedure to change the belts correct, you just appear to be paranoid when it comes to the simple procedure of checking and adjusting the cam phase timing... p.s. the only way you can know if your cam timing is "dead on" is by checking it, and that is not done by simply checking to see if the marks line up... That goes for your Honda engine as well....
After having my 30,000 mile major service completed by Dave, I think I can attest that the only time I can feel any difference in the strength of the motor and overall performance in the car is either: a) when it is running or b) when I put the accelerator down. The car ran fine when I dropped it off, but is noticeably better after his attention to detail in the cam timing. We fixed a lot of things that were "okay" in previous tech's minds. While we had the car apart, we replaced the stock headers with Tubi headers and the stock cats with Hyperflows. I love the F355 and wanted one that I would keep for a long time; therefore we did some preventive maintenance as well as using the best parts for the job. It may seem like overkill for some F355 owners, but for me and the way I use my car, I believe it was the only alternative. I believe and have been told by other club members that have driven my car that it is the strongest F355 they have driven, and I credit Dave for that. I bought the car to drive it the way Enzo would have intended had he been around in 1994 when it was built and I can proudly say it has never been parked in front of a restaurant or a coffee shop, but has spent its last 2.5 years above 5,000 rpms singing its glorious music supplied via Tubi headers, Hyperflow cats and a Tubi exhaust on some of Colorado's best winding roads. So this is my long winded way of saying Yes, cam timing matters.
+1 ----- You can choose to fly First Class or Coach. Of course, First Class costs more...but, the booze is free I'm a nervous flier, so I go with First !!!
IIRC : it was Aug, just after it failed its July SMOG. FofSF stated it needed to be entirely redone, the right bank was just beyond simple adjustments. He dialed them incorrectly. He also, changed the A/C at his persuasion, and my newbieness over to 'newer'/'less-expensive'[CHEAPER-Cr@p], which BTW I have gone back to stock and never regretted: Stock blows cold air, and should be left alone ....won't go into the costs to straighten it out, but needless to say, it was absolutely NO bargain saving that $2k in a 30k service. the year, hmmm, I'd have to look over the paperwork, but it was about four years ago. I totally recommend doing it the right way. It is not that difficult, and if anyone, like me doesn't have the time, energy, to DIY then have it done by a pro. IF it were more simple, it would have been done without consequence long ago. I sure hope we don't have to revisit the ol belt thread: MODS make this a stickie. Rik
I am glad to read that you are taking very good care of your 355 and that you are using it as it was intended. I maintain my car to the same level as you and drive it past the coffee shops and into the country and occasionally on a race track. So there is at least one other 355 owner that is on the same page as you
I agree, the only way to do a proper job is to have the engine out. Other issues to check for is crankshaft seal, camshaft seals, water pump, timeing bellt tensioner bearings, ignition wiring, drive belts, etc. besides the timing belts. Good Luck
Dave, Brian, Jim, Adam- Thanks so much for helping us non-wrenching owners understand the right questions to ask when we are having service done on our cars. It helps us separate the professionals, who take pride in their work, from those who just do not care. After reading your posts for four or five months, I now feel like I can have my car serviced and really understand what needs to be done. The one regret I have is all of you live too bloody far away from Albuquerque. Luckily, the two independent brothers who wrench here take the same pride in their work you do. Now if I can just figure out how to get them an SD2/3, life will be peachy. Taz Terry Phillips
