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Engine oil and ZDDP

Discussion in '206/246' started by solly, Jul 5, 2009.

  1. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    I have been using good old dinosaur oil in 10-30 or 10-40 weights for the 9 years I have owned my Dino. Now there is this big question of a reduction or elimination of ZDDP in motor oils. ZDDP was apparently fouling catalytic converters. But it is esential for lubrication of cams and tappets, particularly on older cars. New cars are being manufactured with harder parts and can stand the losss of ZDDP. Dinos may be affected. Has anyone found a brand of oil with high enough concentrations of ZDDP? Anyone using a ZDDP additive? I am hesitant about additives that have no history.
     
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  3. Zinhead

    Zinhead Karting

    Feb 29, 2004
    184
    Chicago, USA
    Brad Penn.
     
  4. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2006
    4,995
    I have been using ZDDPlus additive in my 246 for about two years. 4 oz. per oil change. No issues.

    http://www.zddplus.com/
     
  5. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2003
    36,891
    Babcock Ranch, FL
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    Dave
    Buy high mileage oil, or oil for diesels. (Might have been motorcycle oil.) (I think that was the conclusion that several other threads came to.)

    Brad Penn works too.

    there have been several discussions about this, just search ZDDP.

    DM
     
  6. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Shell Rotella.
     
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  8. jim13mac

    jim13mac Rookie

    Jun 28, 2006
    23
    NY
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    Jim
    Shell Rotella has been reformulated; do not use it if you are looking for high levels of ZDDP. There are other threads about this on F-Chat, take a look at them for more in-depth information. I use Brad Penn and have been very happy. I know many people that have had wear problems/failures in their vintage engines that most likely (no proof however) can be traced to the use of reformulated oils. I would definitely look into using something with the appropriate amount of ZDDP. It is cheap insurance to spend a bit more on oil to be on the safe side.
    Jim
     
  9. speedmoore

    speedmoore Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician BANNED

    Apr 15, 2003
    1,541
    Austin, Texas
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    D Moore
    Brad Penn is good stuf. Its actually the old Kendal "green" oil.

    We also use ELF excellium 5w40 and 10W50 now renamed Total. Its a European formula with a good bit of ZDDP API: SL/CF, ACEA: A3/B3. It has the same rating as the Shell Ferrari Oil which you can't get anymore. We started using it in our race engine 4 years ago when all this started with the removal of ZDDP right after Katrina hit and the EPA eased the refining requirements in exchange for the removal of ZDDP. There argument is it wore out the cats within the 7 year period. Problem is it will wear out an engine to where a cat can't clean up the HC's so it is a bogus move by the EPA.
     
  10. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,858

    Doctor, out of curiosity, how many miles have you driven your Dino during the past 9 years? Does anyone really believe that the absence of ZDDP will have a material effect on collector cars driven, what, 500 miles a year? Yes, I am certain many will retort that they drive a great deal more and cover more miles, but most of us spend little time driving and more time cleaning, restoring, and debating. If I drove a car 100,000 miles over the period of 5 years, then perhaps I might be concerned. I do not believe that most of us, in our lifetimes, will drive sufficient miles in our Dinos that this will become an issue.

    My Lexus, using standard, off-the-shelf inexpensive oil, has 200,000 miles without a hint of engine issues. Yes, the metallurgy and tolerances are better than 1972, but 200,000 versus 500 miles???? If there was a significant compromise in the lubricating characteristics of non-ZDDP, surely we would have experienced it in our daily drivers.

    Jim S.
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    I drove my TR 155K miles. The chassis rusted away long before the motor failed. I used Castrol. Having driven exotic cars over 500K miles with various oils I've never had an oil related engine issue.
     
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  13. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2006
    4,995
    Probably true. I drive the Dino about 3000 miles per year. I would just say that eight bucks worth of ZDDP added to a once a year oil change is a very small price to pay for peace of mind.
     
  14. racerboy9

    racerboy9 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2003
    2,099
    There are a ton of ZDDP oil additives on Ebay including one from Redline. Any of these worth a hoot for piece of mind?
     
  15. gcmerak

    gcmerak Formula 3

    Mar 17, 2008
    1,647
    Engine Bay, Georgia
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    George C.
    Mobil 1 0w-40 is a good oil and it has 1000 ppm of ZDDP. Extra insurance can't hurt.

    Ciao.
    George
     
  16. mikeyr

    mikeyr Formula 3

    Jun 17, 2004
    2,155
    Santa Barbara, CA.
    Full Name:
    Mike Rambour
    8,000 miles last year in my Dino (8,15x) to be more precise.

    As Napolis said he put many more miles on his toys and last time I drove Corbani's car (2 weeks before his death) it was at 200,000 miles, I believe but don't quote me that the first motor lasted 185,000 miles. We talked about ZDDP and maybe that is why his motor lasted so long and died when they quit putting it in, he did not think so and was not putting it in the new motor.

    I do not know if it makes a difference or not but its really cheap insurance and I have never seen reference to it doing any harm to the motor so my motor gets ZDDP if I have some in the garage when I change the oil, none this past oil change but I will get some in there next change.
     
  17. Tokyo Drftr

    Tokyo Drftr Formula 3

    Jan 18, 2009
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    #14 Tokyo Drftr, Jul 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2009
    I have reseached this to no end. The Diesel oils were good but now have reduced their ZDDP contents. The oil with the highest ZDDP is Valvoline 20/50 racing. I use this with an additive in 2 of my cars and the other i use 15/50 mobil 1 with additive (simply because it has always run mobil 1) but i may change over. Although i was never a fan of Valvoline, (long time user of Kendall, Redline and Castrol) I did the change based on the ZDDP content. Must add, the ash content of Valvoline is much higher aswell, so i change my oil every 3 months. Cheap insurance for expensive cars. PS i do not have cats on any of my cars.
     
  18. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    The content of ZDDP in Brad Penn isn't as high as many believe. It was tested in a lab mentioned elsewhere in this forum.
     
  19. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    #16 Spasso, Jul 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
    I go with www.ZDDPlus.com, the highest amounts in the formula, most of the others DON"T have much more than what is in your EPA oil now. Off the shelf stuff at Pep Boys is worthless.
     
  20. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    #17 Spasso, Jul 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
    Chevron Delo 400 used to be the trick for ZDDP but the detergent package was in question for gasoline engines. I think the ZDDP contents have been reduced as well.

    I used Valvoline VR1 20/50 Racing in my 308 for the ZDDP content BUT I also read that racing oil doesn't have the detergent compounds necessary for extended street usage because racing oil doesn't spend a fraction of the time in your race engine as your street engine so I decided to look elsewhere.

    In my daily driver BMW, Valvoline Premium 20/50 with ZDDPlus additive. Oil change every 3500 miles. Should last well over 200k miles of freeway driving. (No emissions testing)
    In the TR it is Redline 5w40 in the engine and Redline 75w90NS in the transaxle. No additives. Redline has them included. (No Cats)

    The reformulated Kendall green isn't the same stuff anymore either.

    I know I've been making a bunch of comments here in repeated posts but I have been researching and re-rereading about this for over three years (like many of you). Things have changed. What was good three years ago isn't now. The changes continue.

    Now, if we can just dispel the myth of the benefits of minus-zero weight oil.
     
  21. Dino Club Germany

    Dino Club Germany Formula Junior
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    Nov 10, 2008
    545
    Germany
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    N. Schumacher
    May be worth to read, but be carefull it is from a selling company:

    http://www.cam-shield.com/acatalog/FAQ.html

    Here in Europe it is still quite about this topic.
    There is NO brand/OEM specific internetplatform where strong increase on engines defects is mentioned.
    For me it seems to be a US V8 "Lifter" specific problem.
    The oil experts statement is:
    The ZDDP is still in a lot of different oils available and in newer API classes replaced by better additives.
    These won´t burn with lots of remaining charcoal as ZDDP is doing and leaving remanin particles.
    As the Dino engine is from engineering point of view decades more modern as the mentioned V8´s and
    the design with DOHC and the bucket tappets are still up to date, and similar as some 100k´s
    of Alfa 105 Series (Spider, Giulia etc.) I heard no problems from....
    I really believe that this won´t effect Dino engines.
     
  22. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    Han Solo
    It is a problem with ANY engine equipped with a FLAT-TAPPET (non-roller) cam. Not just in the US and not just V8's.
    The ZDDP is still in your typical motor oils but the levels have been reduced by 90%.
    Charcol? If this is true then there have been ZDDP produced charcol deposits in our engines for the last 60 years.
     
  23. gcmerak

    gcmerak Formula 3

    Mar 17, 2008
    1,647
    Engine Bay, Georgia
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    George C.
    ZDDP as I understand it forms into a sacraficial layer on metal to metal surfaces only when the oil film/cushion has been compromised and a critical temp. has been reached between said parts. On my 280Z I logged on 200K miles on regular dino oil with no problems to the cam or tappets. The engine was burning a good deal of oil - bought the car with 100K on the odometer. After the engine rebuild the original overhead cam and tappets were kept. I used dino oil for the first 10K. Then from that point on it has been Valvoline, M1, and Castrol 10W-40 synthetic. Since that rebuild I have logged another 175K miles on that engine with no problems. In fact, the engine didn't come into its own till about 30K after the rebuild. Compression has dropped some, but is still very good and tappets/cam are in great shape. So what to think?

    My readings indicate for flat tappet engines 1200 parts per million of ZDDP is what is needed to do the job, but no more than that. M1 0W-40 has as I said in my previous post 1000 ppm. I think they can do the ZDDP that way because they list it as a European formula. That is what I am using in the Z and Merak. As Sasso said, the oil formulations are constantly being changed and improved upon, who can even keep up with all of that. I don't even know if M1 is a true synthetic [Group IV base stock] any more. Either way my results have been very satisfactory. It's synthetic with ZDDP for me.

    Ciao,
    George
     
  24. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2006
    4,995
    #21 Crawler, Jul 7, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2009
    Furthermore, even if it were true, isn't that the reason that we have motor oil that's formulated to hold particles in suspension, and filters?
     
  25. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    Han Solo
    Yes, isn't it great?
     
  26. Dino Club Germany

    Dino Club Germany Formula Junior
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    Nov 10, 2008
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    And?
    If I have the option I would choose the oil which is not leaving ash (maybe charcoal was a the wrong word) by burning.
    When you compare the remaining stuff in an engine which had used mineralic oil (15W40) with another one
    with same mileage but using synthetic oil then you know what the difference is.
    Others than that I would NOT recommend any mineralic oil using engine to change against synth. oil
    due to the reason that the cleaning additives will remove all that stuff and nobody knows were they will go.
    Gaskets which were sealed mit might become leaking and small oil channels could get closed, I made already the experience.
    The new EP/AW additives sould be better than ZDDP which was a development 50 years ago...
    I am working in the automobile industry as engineer and spent five years on engine test benches (tribology)
    and what makes me wondering that I could not find this Issue for other brands or car types?
     
  27. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    #24 Spasso, Jul 8, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
    Most of your points are good and valid but the "new" EP/AW additives are NOT a replacement for the protection properties of the ZDDP on flat-tappet engines which is the whole reason behind this discussion. It has been driven by Environmental Protection Issues.
    If I am wrong then why have there been THOUSANDS of premature camshaft failures over the decades that were obviously caused by FAILURE of molecular separation of the parts by the lubricant? This is what the ZDDP prevents.The same goes for valve stems and other high load, high heat, metal to metal contact areas in the engine.

    The issue of ash in my engines is a non-issue. I don't believe in 6 to 8 ,000 mile oil changes. Mine are every 3500 miles, the oil is clean when it comes out and there is no sludge in the engine when I pull a valve cover or oil pan.. To most that may be a waste of money but to me it saves an engine rebuild before 200k miles on the odometer.

    I have changed my Testarossa to synthetic oil, it remains clean and doesn't leak any more than it did before.. Guess I'm lucky.

    BTW, bench testing isn't the real world, but then, that's my opinion, and like a-holes, everyone has one..
     
  28. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    #25 Spasso, Jul 8, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
    The failure in American V8 cam shafts can be attributed to a number of factors, larger displacement and higher loads, especially in the thousands of trucks. I believe the ubiquitous economy 4 cylinder doesn't come close to the abuse of most of the larger displacement engines in the US.

    High performance flat-tappet engines like many American V8's and many European engines as well, like Porsche, have very high valve spring loadings to eliminate valve float at high RPM's. This is where the newer oils fail. An engine in a car running a road race rarely goes below 6,000 RPM for hours on end. I'll take the ZDDP thanks, (and lead in my gasoline for racing too. The lead serves the same purpose as the ZDDP)
     

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