Engine out timing chain replacement | FerrariChat

Engine out timing chain replacement

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Godspeed!, Oct 3, 2009.

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  1. Godspeed!

    Godspeed! Karting

    Dec 1, 2006
    137
    Mandeville, Louisian
    Full Name:
    Dave Foley
    #1 Godspeed!, Oct 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yep, after much thought and research, decided to pull the engine to do the chain.

    Initially I first thought of doing the "wind it in" method with engine in place, that many others have chosen. But........gaskets leaking, seals........etc etc.

    My car has about 42 k miles, carb'd automatic. Noticed at idle the chain making itself know by slaping the cover. Looked at the tensioner adjuster, and it was "adjusted all the way in.

    So, engine out. Fabed up a stand, approached all this very carefully, not in a rush.

    Getting right to it (skip info on pulling engine, cleaning etc). After removing the tensioner assy, first interesting tid bit appears. The tension rail did not pivot easily at all........uh, very little. After removing the cover, which showed evidence of chain hitting, the rail was removed and the inner pivot bushing was very tight in the rail. The bushing should be clamped by the tightened stud fastener and the rail pivots about it, being fed drip oil through two feed holes in the pivot base of the tensioner.

    In the picture below you will see the original rail and bushing. What happened here is metal transfer from the softer rail to the bushing through what is called fretting. Fretting occurs under heavy load and very slight movement. Supplied lube can be displaced, and this is what can happen. Previous owner? adjusted tensioner to no avail, it wasn't moving.

    Get's better, after recieving the new "updated" tensioner, you can see the additional oil feed groove on the side of the pivot bore (both sides). Test fit in the case of the new rail prompted a mic check/comparison between the old and new. New is wider, if repalcement inner bushing of same width dim is used, it will clamp the new rail, not allowing it to pivot.
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  2. Godspeed!

    Godspeed! Karting

    Dec 1, 2006
    137
    Mandeville, Louisian
    Full Name:
    Dave Foley
    Ok, so now the real engineering kicks in. Maybe along with the update in the tensioner, the F guys modified the inner pivot bushing (NLA BTW) and machining dims in the front cover. Can't answer this.

    So with a quick thermal expansion checkon the rail / housing bore, I am leaving the housing as is, making a bushing of 17-4 PH (grind/polish), adding oil supply grooves which line up with the oil supply holes (will be enlarged) on the new rail and carefully milling a bit from each side of the new tension rail at the pivot area. The original inner bushing had fairly pronounced machining grooves.

    Onward!
     
  3. Godspeed!

    Godspeed! Karting

    Dec 1, 2006
    137
    Mandeville, Louisian
    Full Name:
    Dave Foley
    #3 Godspeed!, Oct 3, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2009
    So with the cover off, all innards removed, wow, that's strange..............

    The tube which recieves the short hose from the water pump had very strange striated corrosion, heavy only in the id of the tube. This machined tube threads in the front cover and has a tapered end at the threaded area.

    Had a new one made and allowed for hard anodizing. Hard anodizing, unlike decorative, actually penetrates the aluminum . Very effective against corrosion.

    I have two extras if anyone needs one ( $85.00 ). I left mine as anodized on the exterior, but this can be painted over if desired.

    Well, batteries went out in camera, will post pics when new are installed.
     
  4. Godspeed!

    Godspeed! Karting

    Dec 1, 2006
    137
    Mandeville, Louisian
    Full Name:
    Dave Foley
    #4 Godspeed!, Oct 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. Godspeed!

    Godspeed! Karting

    Dec 1, 2006
    137
    Mandeville, Louisian
    Full Name:
    Dave Foley
    #5 Godspeed!, Oct 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Also changing the oil pump chain and tensioner. Here we go again, th etensioner has been updated (Pic) along with the method of attachment. New style uses a stud, nut and washer. Initial check of line up to chain revealed the new style tensioner's wear pad would not center on the chain. Even the old style was close to the edge (see wear marks).

    Resolving this was just a matter of taking the new tensioner apart and swaping over the over lap of the hinges.

    Just good practice to check and double check everything!
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  6. Fritz Ficke

    Fritz Ficke Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,266
    Tucson, AZ.
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    Fritz Ficke
    Dave, I brought the same after market tensioner you did becouse it was $400 cheaper than the OEM part and yes I had to file the sides of it so that it would piviot freely.
    Unlike you, I bolted the front cover on to find out the tensioner was to wide!

    The gaskets quality is very diff. from place to place. Be careful.

    Watch for pulling studs when reassy. Be prepared to 'Helicol'.

    The valve guides were shot on my heads with 67,000 miles, I reused valves. Ferrari recomends new valves at 50,000 K!!
     
  7. Godspeed!

    Godspeed! Karting

    Dec 1, 2006
    137
    Mandeville, Louisian
    Full Name:
    Dave Foley
    Fritz,

    The new tensioner in the photo is an actual Ferrari part, not aftermarket. Everything so far, including gaskets, have been factory parts.

    Godspeed!
    Dave
     
  8. Fritz Ficke

    Fritz Ficke Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,266
    Tucson, AZ.
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    Fritz Ficke
    Dave,
    The picture you have looks like the $180 after market tensioner milled out of a billet of aluminum, instead of the $640 OEM one machined from a casting.
    My mistake, Fritz
     
  9. brettski

    brettski Formula 3

    Feb 29, 2004
    1,754
    north of toronto
    Full Name:
    brett swaykoski
    great work Dave and good luck as the project marches on...and i like your taste in Ferarri's.
    now that i've sold my '78 308, i've got my '75 308 GT4 and my '78 400a...just like you.
    keep the pics coming.

    brett
     
  10. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Dec 31, 2005
    7,090
    lexington ky usa
    Full Name:
    mitchell barnes
    hand built is always a challenge, Ferrari not an exception. could have been a holiday when the stopped that day. Italy has a few holidays. thanks for posting photos
     
  11. Godspeed!

    Godspeed! Karting

    Dec 1, 2006
    137
    Mandeville, Louisian
    Full Name:
    Dave Foley
    Well the tensioner was ordered through Maranello Conessionaires, believe came in a F bag with part number. Who sells the "aftermarket" one?

    Godspeed!
    Dave
     
  12. Godspeed!

    Godspeed! Karting

    Dec 1, 2006
    137
    Mandeville, Louisian
    Full Name:
    Dave Foley
    Brett,

    Yea, that's neat, what a great combo. My GT4 is yellow, the 400A is black. Been enjoying your posts, gave me the guts to dive in.

    Hand built is a challenge, I like it. Built several BMW F2 Schnitzer twin cam, slide throttle, mechanical injection , dry sump etc set ups, lots of hand fitting. Cool stuff also but man o man these castings and 6 DCOE carbs, love it.

    Godspeed!
    Dave
     
  13. Fritz Ficke

    Fritz Ficke Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,266
    Tucson, AZ.
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    Fritz Ficke
    Dave I sent you a PM
     
  14. tr0768

    tr0768 Formula Junior

    Oct 28, 2008
    736
    Lake Stevens Washington
    Full Name:
    Howard Musolf
    We work on only aluminum engines in our Subaru Service Centers and NEVER use helicoils, never, never!!!! These are a coiled piece of spring steel that really has very little holding power.

    The best solution is a "Threadsert" this is a hardened threaded solid externaly threaded sleeve that will hold the torque of head studs and bolts. You can buy Threadserts in both inch and metric threads. A individual kit includes a drill bit to correctly size the o/d ,the outside thread tap and champher cutter, an instalation tool.

    You use the drill to size the hole, then cut the o/d thread and champher with the tap provided. You install the insert flush with the original surface. The Threadsert has a small flange with barbs on the underside that will bite into the parent metal when seated. When installed properly the surface is flush and the hardened insert is actually stronger that threads cut into aluminum.

    We have used these inserts for many years and have NEVER had a failure with either small or larger boths or studs. I have no relationship with Threadsert other than to have been totaly pleased with the performance of this product.


    Howard Musolf
    1981 308gtsi
    1982 400i Cabriolet
    Maserati spyder


    If it don't fit force it, if it breaks it needed replacement anyway.

    Friends don't let friends use Framm filters on their Ferrari
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,090
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Helicoils are an outstanding repair when properly installed. There are many installed at the factory on Ferrari motors for some of the fasteners as well.
     

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