348 - Engine repair thread | FerrariChat

348 Engine repair thread

Discussion in '348/355' started by Ferrarium, Oct 13, 2021.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    #1 Ferrarium, Oct 13, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
    I was doing 10-15 mph leaving a light chatting with the wife basically just putting and tragedy struck in between 1st and 2nd shift. I was out of gear actually when it happened. Wife thought I missed a gear. The sounds was sort of like marbles in a can. Then the car died. Towed the car home and I pulled the belt inspection cap and belt is is still there and has teeth, so belt did not break and it has tension still. Sounds like the engine is coming out, who knows what goofiness happened last major I paid for when I bought it.

    So Problem:
    #1 I have a quick jack, will that lift high enough?
    #2 How do I pull the motor and get it into the back yard workshop through 4.5 foot wide gates, 2 of them?

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Well furniture dollies wont roll across grass so step 1 measure and build a cradle with some extra features. Time to bust out the Miller 215 and some .125 wall steel.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Before I tanked the motor I got prepared, drained fluids, removed fender liners and under trays etc. In removing the tray under hte front of the engine I heard a rattle. Odd... I removed it and turned it sideways and a little bit of metal slid out, it looked like 1.5 the width of twist tie that had been folded over several times like a Samurai sword folds metal. I will have to straighten it and see if that gives any clues. More on that later.


    So now we yank the motor with some fchat hemp from Marc (mr308gtb) using 3in casters like the furniture dollies use.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Then we jack it up with the wings I have on the cradle and we bolt on some big girls, 12" wheels with plates and mounts that was part of the cradle design.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Well the motor won't fit though as it is in the car its too wide with the axles and hubs. BUT... It is narrow enough sideways, that is the axle and hubs front to back as opposed to side to side. Good think I had 12" swivel casters on there! Grab a neighbor and a pushing Marc and I went.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Went back the next morning and took a look. Hell that's a 348 motor in my back yard workshop alright!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    halr75 and ernie like this.
  2. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Now we begin the process of figuring out how my engine failed and likely bent valves from the sound of it I(marbles in a can if you recall then went dead) with the timing belt still under tension and the teeth still there from what I can tell. All while going 10 mph.
     
    solana_sc likes this.
  3. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,629
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky
    Before you stat pulling the engine apart check the timing marks on the cams. Could be a transmission problem. Just saying.... Also, did you notice if you still had oil pressure before the engine died?
     
  4. John Glen

    John Glen Formula Junior

    Dec 30, 2009
    476
    Victoria, B.C, Can.
    Full Name:
    John Glen Wesanko
    possible one of the "fences" came off one of the cam belt pullies ?
     
    WATSON and Qavion like this.
  5. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Yes had oil pressure as I recall. Definitely heard valve interference, bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing. Timing is off between banks.
     
  6. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Remember that folded metal, here it is unfolded. Ugh, we all know what that is. The question is why just that bit? Will pull the timing covers and have a look.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    WATSON and Qavion like this.
  7. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

    Feb 6, 2009
    34,548
    Ontario, Canada
    Full Name:
    Mike
  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Daniel Pass of Ricambin knows it well. The metal fence on the timing belt drive pulley gave up the ghost.
     
    ernie likes this.
  9. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Aaaaannnnnd right where it was welded, literally cracked off exactly along the tack seam. The weld made it fail.
     
    ernie and johnk... like this.
  10. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
     
    ernie likes this.
  11. KevZep

    KevZep Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2020
    563
    New Zealand
    Full Name:
    Kevin Bennett
    Thats right, when I took my pulley to a welder, they told me because of the different materials of the fence and the pulley, it would not be possible to do an effective weld, they refused to do it telling me it was a waste of time. They told me the weld would fail and after detailed inspection could not see an issue with my pulley fence.
    I am not sure if Ferrari changed those pulleys somewhere along the production life, but my fence was 100% and so far so good, 3,500miles after the service its still going strong...
     
  12. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,629
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky
    Welding timing sprocket fences is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you will get. :(
     
    MAD828 likes this.
  13. radlu

    radlu Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2005
    407
    Didn't someone here just buy a 348 without a transmission? Might be a good donor can for an engine? Dunno
     
  14. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    #14 Ferrarium, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
    Nah I'll rebuild the heads, Olsen machine is close by.

    As far as the weld.... the issue is not the fact that you can't weld it the issue is when they did my weld they put such a big block 2/3 of it is on the fence itself which is not needed. I call the shop, tell them to do it, the admin writes it down, hands it to the sales mgr, he tells the mechanic, he pulls it, send it to the weld shop, they see talk the pulley, they go sure but have no clue its 4 layers deep in communication. At the time I had no garage and no welder after costal move or I would have done it myself.

    It should look like the one on the left. Mine looks like the one on the right. The issue is not the "fence" needs a welds its the SEAM, a fat bead on the face of the 12 gauged fence will just weaken it. Ohh and tig not mig if possible.

    Issue is not the weld issue is the lack of understanding what to weld. Ohh and not removing the zinc coating first.


    Sent using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     

    Attached Files:

    WATSON likes this.
  15. GTO Joe

    GTO Joe Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 15, 2013
    989
    Charlotte, NC
    Full Name:
    Joseph Troutwine
    Well that was my first guess as to what it was also. On my first engine out the very respected shop that I used recommended that I not weld the fences for exactly this reason. Guess I dodged a bullet on this one. What a shame for this to happen, hope the inside damage is not to extensive given you were at low revs when it happened. Thanks for starting this thread so we all can see up close what happened. Makes one wonder if these pulleys should be a periodic replacement like the tensioner bearings.
     
  16. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,629
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky
    So what the scenario, fence broke, a piece got under the belt and the belt skipped a tooth or three?

    What out of time, one cam on one bank?
     
  17. MAD828

    MAD828 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 8, 2011
    2,539
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Elliott Caras
    I’m glad I left my pulley fences well alone.
     
  18. QSA

    QSA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2011
    299
    Kingwood, TX
    Full Name:
    Quinn
    Are you saying your welds are not at the seams, and essentially the fences weren’t welded at all?

    We have a mishmash of scenarios here:
    - unwelded seams failing (and pros suggesting to weld)
    - welded seams failing (and pros suggesting not to weld)
    - improperly welded seams failing (which may fall into any category above)
     
  19. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Yes my welds we're 3/4 on the fence barely touching the seams. Funny it was always in the back of mind, "what did they do exactly". I'll post a pic later this week.

    Sent using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  20. radlu

    radlu Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2005
    407
    So it was the fences on the pulley.
     
  21. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    #21 Ferrarium, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
    Got the pulley off today had to get the 28mm ring nut socket first.

    Ha ha ha... it looks like they freaking flux core tacked it no less. If your going to weld pullies, get it from the shop, take it to a fab shop, explain it and have a specialty welder do it then bring it back. Don't trust "they know what to do". Or do it your self. Ohh and bead blast them to clear the zinc coating.

    That failure is not a similar metal thing, the weld held fine, it's straight ****ty welding.

    Very expensive mistake. But it's fun to do it all myself. Heads will be done by Olsen Machine. He's closing doors after 50 years at one location doing heads for Ferrari Tri state indie and dealerships in in early 2022 so I'm squeaking in.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Sent using FerrariChat.com mobile app

    I'll post pics of the valves soon before they are removed from the head. Most intakes are slightly best at best and some piston marks you can't feel unless you dig in with your nail.
     
    WATSON, ernie, QSA and 1 other person like this.
  22. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    #22 Ferrarium, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
    Btw I know a guy out here who had the same result but it was a function of a small chunk of plastic from the plastic timing case that broke loose. No doubt during service and the shop never mentioned it or never knew.


    Ahh well in my case lots of new stuff going in including pullies and always wanted to get to those temp sensors under the manifold you can't get with manifold on, so it will be good for another 25 years. Actually that will complete the sensor replacement, damn near all of them.

    Ohh Daniel at Ricambi loaned me the the oil galley jig, (thanks Daniel) so that and the tsb for the pinched o-rings I'll be doing too. Waiting for 12inch drill bit from McMaster.

    Sent using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  23. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    10,629
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky
    #23 johnk..., Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
    Brittle weld. :( Looks like a Bradan special. I recall them posting pulleys they welded that looked just like that (before it broke).
     
  24. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2018
    5,624
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    #24 Ferrarium, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
    Brittle, flux core, too much heat on the fence, actually the fence needed no weld, just everything about that is dead wrong. Shop in your part of the woods did it John.

    It sort of looks exactly like a mig tack where they forgot to turn the shielding gas on and did not realize. Basically no weld.. just hot bird sh*t and damaged metal with ZERO penetration and oxidized and that would explain the crack at the weld seam actually.

    I bet that's it...

    Did I mention this is the third car some shop is touched that's had a total failure...

    Sent using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  25. QSA

    QSA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2011
    299
    Kingwood, TX
    Full Name:
    Quinn
    Are you doing any mods? Larger valves, porting, etc?

    What valves are you using (Ferrari, Ducati, other?
     

Share This Page