Engine Wear At Start Up

How many modern motors have you seen that needed to be rebuilt because of worn out lubricated parts?


I never do.

 

Thats partially it but also we rebuild almost all motors because of worn out pistons, rings and valves. The portions that are worn out are the ones that get no lubrication.

Worn out bearings, cranks etc almost never happen. The one very high wear area in Ferrari motors if we go back a bit are the valve trains in single cam V12's. The cams,rollers and adjusting screws on the later ones and the cams and rockers on early Colombo motors are high stress parts and coupled with the fact that all we have had to work with in the last 20 whatever years are reproduction parts that are often not as good as the originals makes those a problem.

 

I'm not a professional engine rebuilder so I don't have Brian's experience in that area, but I have a comment and a story to add that might ease your concerns about engine wear during startup. It is heat that kills metal and I don't believe that a cold idling engine will do any damage at all to parts that are normally lubricated, despite what many people say, even when there is no oil pressure for several seconds.

When you start up an engine you may not have oil pressure, but you do have a thin film of oil on the bearing surfaces and it takes awhile for those surfaces to get hot enough to become damaged. Of course, I wouldn't rev an engine w/o oil pressure because that creates much more friction than idling, but I suspect that even a minute of idling a cold engine w/o oil pressure would not cause any damage. I agree that's scary and I would never do it, but here's something from my experience to back that up...

Many years ago I was exploring old mining roads in a Dodge Dart in the Arizona mountains south of Tucson. In the process I hit a rock in the road and sheared the drain plug off the oil pan. I was 30 miles from civilization and within seconds all my engine oil had disappeared into the rocky soil under the car. It was in the fall and the temperature was in the 50s. I decided that my only recourse was to drive the car until the temperature gauge showed it getting hot, then shut it off and wait for it to cool, and repeat. My recollection is that I would drive about five minutes, then stop for ten minutes, etc. Fortunately, I had several thousand feet in elevation to lose in thirty miles so there was not an excessive load on the engine and after several hours I arrived in a small town and found someone to repair the pan and fill the engine with oil, and I was on my way.

I never worried that I had damaged that engine because I didn't drive it while overheated, even though I drove thirty miles with no oil in it. The engine had almost 100,000 miles on it so the bearings were looser than new and less likely to be damaged in those conditions. I had no oil pressure gauge so I had no way of knowing if the bearings were even looser afterwards. I did, however, put another 15,000 miles on that engine before finally selling the car and it never showed any sign of damage.

Although this experience is a testament to the durability of the old Dodge straight six engine, it also says a lot for how durable metal is as long as it is not allowed to get excessively hot. I found Brian's remarks that it is the unlubricated parts (pistons, valves, rings) of an engine that ultimately require an engine to be rebuilt to be very telling. I'd never thought about that, but it is true. Bearings don't fail unless there has been real abuse. I know because I've done that too.

 

Al Bundy would be proud of that Dodge!

 

Sheesh, why are people so paranoid about their Ferraris?

Do you have the same concerns when you start your daily driver(s)?

 

Use synthetic oil. In modern cars anyway.

I don't know if you can use in the vintage cars, but I assume you can. Would be interesting to know from an expert if you can't use synthetic oil.

Thanks

 

You can use it but, according to to many posts, it may cause leaks in gaskets used to dino oil.

 

I would accept that little leaks anytime for the exchange of the extra start-up protection that you get in return.

 

People are paranoid because Ferrari engines are built to much closer tolerences than Detroit lumps (at least older Detroit lumps!), and the cost of repairs is so high. People lack confidence that what a "normal" engine can deal with a Ferrari engine can't, and to some extent they are right. For example, you can't run an aluminum head engine in an overheating condition nearly as long as an all iron engine without causing damage. But it's also true people over react, like thinking running at 4k RPMs all day is better than winding the engine out for fear of hurting it, or excessive idling to get the temperature up before they drive at all.

I've also wondered about wear on start-up, and it's good to see the experts chime in with real knowledge on the subject!

Ken

 

If it's a concern during oil and filter changes, preload the filter before installing.

 

How do you preload the filter when it is on the top of the engine?

 

1: Remove engine.

2: Turn upside down.

3: Change oil.

4: Replace engine.

Simple!

Ken

 

There are two things that I can think of that might help you.

After replacing the oil, before you start the engine, unplug the coil wire to the distributor cap, and crank the engine with the starter motor for a few seconds. This will turn the oil pump without the engine running and should help prime some of the empty oil passages. I do this even though I think that the benefits are marginal just to make me feel better. I don’t know what to do with a distributor-less ignition system.

My last car had an accusump. This is a secondary remote oil tank that stores oil until the engine oil pressure is low and then it releases oil into the head. This was on a track car that would have oil starvation problems in long fast corners. So that when the oil pan pick ups were dry, the acusump would deliver oil to the engine. When traveling straight again, the engine oil pressure would be elevated and send oil back to the accusump (I think). Anyway, I would always run the car to high revs and turn the accusump off. This would build oil pressure in the accusump before switching the car off. When coming back to the car I switch the sump on and viola, oil pressure would go up with the engine off. I also think that the benefits of doing this are marginal; it just made me feel better.

 

Because I can't run down to the dealer and buy a brand new 328, and if the engine goes it will run five-figures to put it right. It's not a disposable car. I view it as a forever car, if not for me then for someone.

My daily drivers, OTOH, I sell or turn in on lease every 3 years, and there's probably no way short of running the car without oil that I'm going to ruin the engine and void the warranty. I regularly start the Jeep cold, drive it 3 minutes to the corner, park. Stop. Start. Drive 2 minutes to the bank. Stop. Start. etc. If it falls apart 2 months after I trade it, I don't really care.

What he said...

 

I have a 308 with a rebuilt engine and oil pump.

even on my rebuilt engine it takes what feels like an age for oil pressure to build up on the guage, particularily when the car has been left sitting for any time and the oil has drained back into the sump from the filter and all the channels (as it does on 308's).

On these occassions when starting up I have taken the oil cap off and looked to see how long it takes to see oil coming out on the tappits/ cams(obviously requires 2 people!!)

It takes about 2 seconds, but it takes longer for the oil pressure to build up and the low oil pressure light to go out.

Just don't rev the arse out of the engine on start up is my advice. I can only assume that this was how the car was when new.

There is no non return valve on the oil line on the 308's to keep the system full so I can only assume they are meant to operate that way?

There was no wear on my crank (or bearings) or cams when the egine was rebuilt with 70K miles on it. Only the con rod big ends had some wear, and that was minor. There was sigificant wear on the valve guides (all were replaced) but no wear on the valves themselves or the valve seats or buckets.

So I would agree with the posts in general that Ferrari drivers are over paranoid about oil pressure. Having spoken to a number of people who rebuild 308 engines they say as long as your low pressure oil light goes out you are fine (ignore the the meter as theya re usually wrong anyway!)

 

Many think that after sitting awhile all the oil drains away from all moving parts. This is just not the case, especially when it come to bearings. I have taken apart motors that have set for months and oil is still everywhere in the engine. This ought to give you some piece of mind when changing oil, sometimes the hydralic lash adjusters will clack a bit until the oil pressure builds but really the engine will wear more from running cold than it will from a temporary dip in oil pressure. Changing oil after a warm up is sound advice. Old timers always swore by using block heaters to limit wear at start up.

 

Won’t this wash the cylinders with raw gas and thus increase wear?

 

As mentioned, remove the ignition source and crank the engine until pressure is read. Crank for a few seconds at a time with a few seconds break inbetween to help keep the starter from getting hot. If you don't remove the ignition source then do not rev the engine, just let it idle...but I don't recommend this step.

Pre-filling the oil filter would be nice but in that silly, upside-down position that will not be possible. Synthetic oil is sticky and over-kill lubrication protection, use it if at all possible! That will definitely help reduce engine start-ups in all vehicles (I use Mobil 1 in all my cars...including the old air-cooled ones ).

For any driving, simply start the car and gently drive away. Don't rev/abuse the engine until the oil/engine temp. is in the operating temp. zone. Idling and waiting for the oil/engine temp. needle to move or get into the operating zone will take the engine longer to warm up and will cause more wear. Do this with any of your vehicles you own unless the owner's manual says otherwise.

 

Yup, I've seen the same.

Oil definitely should be warmed up -- going for a drive is a more thorough and funner way to do it For better drainage, not only should the oil be warm (as it states in the owner's manuals ) but you should give the oil time to drain as well. I let my vehicles sit for 15 minutes after the rush of oil has drained out and bounce/rock the vehicle to get as much of the old oil out (jack up car, pull oil drain, lower car back to ground, let drain for 15).