Enough with the Flappy-Paddles only

What a great analogy, Big laugh of the day, thanks.

 

To all of you guys out there claiming the excuse "my wife.. My GF.. My mistress... Can't drive stick so you HAVE to get a flappy, DSG, DCT, etc. There is only 1 solution.

Divorce them or trade them in. Simple. Any "car guy" who is with a woman (or man) who can't drive stick shouldn't be with that person. Stick is a prerequisite!





Unles she's really hot. (Hehehe)

 

Putting a 3 pedal tranny in the RS would be going backwards IMHO. For race-replica cars like the GT-2, GT-3 and RS versions, as well as F-car Stradale and Challenge models, where speed/lap times are the goal, the PDK/F-1/dual-clutch tranny are the way to go. For non-race replica models, keep the three pedal option available.

 

As has been pointed out by others already:


If there is a big enough market for a manual gearbox option then manufacturers will build them.

If there isn't a big enough market then they simply won't bother as it's not cost effective to design, engineer and produce them!

This simple rule applies to all of the car manufacturers and not just Ferrari!

You can cry, whinge, B:censored:h, throw teddy out the cot and mourn about the loss of stick shift Ferrari's but the fact is, unless the demand for them increases massively then they're not going to make a comeback!

Those of you complaining about the flappy-paddle gearbox only option?: You're flapping your lips in vein! - The evolution of motoring has made the stick shift a dinosaur that is gradually facing extinction!

 

I wear a mechanical watch and it is appealing. When I need an accurate time, I check my iPhone.

On the "spurious" comment, this is simply wrong. The improvement is quantifiable.

On the Corvette, I would expect a $60K car to outsell a $300K one. Porsche is the more interesting case, because you can get an old school manual or PDK manual throughout most of its sports car range (Boxster/Cayman, 991/Turbo), so we'll see what affluent buyers choose.

 

If you want lap times PDK, f1, dct whatever are all faster NOW. Driving experience I went old school no power steering and 3 pedals.

However when the m3 smg came out,I knew Someone with smg and someone with a stick. I drove the stick against the smg and beat it straight line 3 out of 4 times. He won on a missed 1-2 shift. I haven't driven a dct but I would love to find a new m3 in stick and do a short shifter and dssr upgrade and try it again.

Best tranny I ever felt was in my 07 gt500. Clutch was hard but that tranny would take all the abuse.

There's no more driver error with paddle shifters. It's 100% better for lap times and traffic.

 

A stick looks stupid in a new generation street or race car.

Stick is for the classics

Enjoy, there are lots of them.

If you are really miffed and have the dough to do something about it, order a F12 with a stick. While your at it, equip it with roll up windows, carburation and bias ply tires.

See you in the rear view.

 

Nobody on the Manual side is arguing that flappy-paddles be banned.

Be that as it may, I, personally, will never buy a flappy-paddle car. If Ferrari makes no manuals, then they have selected themselves off my buying list, new or used.

 

The manual is gone. It too bad but with how these cars are built today and the extreme performance they are capable of, the manual trans just seems completely out of place.

I never thought I would say such a thing, but after driving many of these newer cars with dct, it is mind blowing performance. Boring at times for sure.

It is funny however, when ever I get into an F1 equipped Ferrari, my left foot always try's to find the clutch peddle. I had a great time today road testing a TR. It was really nice to actually "drive" a car for a change. Nothing IMHO can replace the feel of the ball in your hand and pushing through the gears of a gated shifter. It's just too much fun.

 

Someone please define PDK for me. Thanks.

As for the C7, it is very compelling. A Z06 or ZR1 version with a 7-speed stick would be awesome, but the ZR1 would be well over $100K. Probably more like $125K. That's a lot for a Chevy. Don't think there will be a stampede to buy it, but I'm often wrong.

Cheers,

George

 

PDK = Porsche's dual clutch transmission. Don't ask me to try to spell out the long German form...

 

Thanks, I was right judging from the context, but couldn't figure out what it could mean in English. Silly me.

Cheers,

George

 

Please allow me to do it for you: "Porsche Doppelkupplungsgetriebe"

The first dual clutch transmission in a large-scale production car came from VW in 2003 under the designation "Direktschaltgetriebe (DSG)".

This transmission concept has found its success in the racing sport via cars like the Porsche 956/962 and also the Audi Sport Quattro S1 (in 1985).

Rumors say that the S1 has been banned from the rally sport because it was too boring to drive this car with such a gear box...

 

I learned to drive on a three on a tree and I did not even own an automatic transmission car until I was in my mid 30's. Technology is great though for me it sometimes goes too far (don't get me started on texting instead of talking) and all of these fancy paddle boxes is one of those places (I also don't see a need for a thermostat I can tell want temperature I want either). Even after all these years I like the feeling of getting the perfect shift and knowing I did it not some computer. It is part of the enjoyment of driving at least for me, without it I am driving my Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit a nice car but no engagement with the driver. I'm sure there are those who would probably never own a Ferrari if they had not come out with the paddles and for them I am say great for you. For me the choice of transmissions and cars is about a lot more than how fast it can shift gears.

 

Meh, this PDK is nothing compared to the famous (infamous?) Volkswagen Autostick, which I vaguely remember from my early childhood :
Autostick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Incorrect on the Turbo, automatic only....so I'll stick to the 997 generation.

And its unfortunate if the top-end car companies are indeed letting the affluent choose rather than the enthusiasts.

 

Please. The car companies are letting the people that actually BUY the car choose, this is the way it should be, and the way it has always been. If enough folks had ordered 3 pedal 430's, 3 pedals would have been available on the 458. People ordered F1 in the 430 at a clip of over 90%.

I have no doubt that Porsche encountered the same thing on the Turbo (Most BUYERS ordered PDK).

Jimmy

 

I stand corrected. Looks like neither the old school stick nor Tiptronic are available. PDK only.

Agree.

 

Danke schon.

My first experience with the DSG manual was in 2008. At that time, it was leaps and bounds better than Ferrari's initial attempts at an F1 gearbox for the road (355 and 360) and BMW's SMG. The reliability and performance of those early units actually did make the old school stick a rational choice.

I remember this -- plenty of reports of drivers periodically snoozing during the race, and then getting less female attention as a result of the gearbox change.

 

I don't think it's that simple.

Surely, the manual is on it's way out but I believe Ferrari killed it entirely with the 458 because of packaging. They simply could not fall farther behind McLaren by making engineering sacrifices to make a platform that would work with both a manual box and DCT.

If the ratio was closer to 50/50 I'm sure they would do it. But with it more like 95/5, it wasn't worth losing those 5% to a greater number going with McLaren or Lambo.

You have to remember these decisions were made back in 2007. McLaren was already working on a "Ferrari beater" with lighter weight, a more powerful turbo, a CF tub, DCT, and hydraulic suspension. That had to sound very formidable to the Ferrari engineers at a time when Scud orders were through the roof-- all with F1's.

 

So 100% of 997 Gt3 buyers chose a manual(only tranny offered on a bcakordered car) porche followed the market and went to PDK only? Its just not that simple.

BMW Vette to name two sell 30-40% manual.

Now Ferrari buyers may be different, because they are old cant drive stick like to pose and have paris hilton and justin beiber as cleb clients.

But another additional explanation is that the last few manual cars ferrari made had ill suited motor combos for a manual. Ie low torque high rev needing multiple stacked gears.


We can aslo see from the 360 on maost ferraris depreciate like any other used car, they become yesterdays old tech. Yet the few manual 360's 430's and 599's fetcha premium, because they have an appeal thta is more timeless than being the latest trinket.

sadly newer ferraris are fashion acessories of sorts. The problem for ferrari si that things go out fo fashion too. Sometimes its good to have a core customer base, a core ferrari now ignores.

The 991 is PDK only because proche suffers from the belief that the prior gt3 was outclassed by not havign a paddle, yet they sold everyone they made, people bought GT3s because of what thye were and how they drove, not paper specs. Porche also reasoned that ofrening the Gt3 with paddles would expand the Gt3 bandwidth and sell more 991 overall which is true. But they abandoned a core client base. We will never know how many manual GT3 they could have sold because it has not been offered. in fact how many manual Gt3 without 4ws would they have sold.

Yet if rumores of the cayman Gt4 are correct we will have a fast tarck capable stick proche soon. And because its a lesser model and will no doubt be slower than the halo Gt3 model it wont interfere with the poseur desire to have the fastest "paper" proche 911 (918 excluded as its notreall attainable). I woudl argue thtaa GT3 mtored stick caymaon would almost negate the Gt3 for anybody who goes tot he track, and thta si probably why porche wont build it, because poseurs still buy cars they see those in the know driving and a 991 varaint fetches more proft than a cayman. So its not about cutomer choice but also pure marketing logic.


Ferrari could do the same thing as porche may do with the cayman Gt4. Offer a ferrari version of the 4c put the masser V6 in it and astick for those who want. Wishbone suspension different body which will really seprate it from the 4c. It will surely be slower than a 458 on paper, probably way more fun to drive on street and track. Be less comfortable or useable for grifriends to drive in traffic. But Fearrari woudl be adressing a core constituency and they have all the necessary bits on hand, so rleatively minimal development.

They wont do this because marketign will tell them that they need to sell fewer more expensive cars with high priced options. So ferrari is now a marketing and branding company, that happens to make soem fast cars anyone can drive. It woudl be nice if sometimes they threw out the rulebook and built a truly seminal car, because seminal cars are the core of the brand for street cars, not just some tenuous link to F1.

 

The Ferrari-to-F1 link isn't "tenuous". Ferrari is nearly synonymous with F1 and has been since the '50s (and the company began only a few years prior to that.) The Enzo, LaFerrari and even the 458 Speciale are roadgoing translations of Ferrari's racing technologies. Not racing in the 1960s, but racing now.

If engineering preferred three-pedal manuals, and marketing preferred dual clutch manuals, I might believe you. But when Ferrari is building cars to win races, they go with paddles. As do Mercedes, Williams et al.

The only reason to go back to a three-pedal manual over a dual clutch manual would be marketing. Engineering doesn't seem to want it, and with all the other intelligence built into modern cars (perhaps especially Ferraris), it would be a weak link in a highly tuned system.

I do think Ferrari succumb to the marketing department too often (theme park; 'Alonso' and 'GTO' versions of the outgoing 599 model; branded laptops, watches, head-to-toe sportswear, etc.) But paddle-shift manual gearboxes come from engineering. Let's be clear about it.

Also, to your last sentence, I personally don't see the benefit to deliberately making cars that some people find hard to drive (old school manual), especially if it means reducing performance and economy in order to attain that higher level of difficulty. There will always be professional race drivers who can turn a better lap than you or I. The notion that manufacturers should complicate things in order to have slightly slower cars to indulge the need for us old farts to feel superior is hard to defend.

 

Bitte schön!

Yes, I've heard about these stories; the drivers dozed and the co-drivers read the newspaper instead of the road (prayer) books - the downfall of the racing heroes has began. btw, Michèle Mouton was just a logical consequence from the gearbox boredom.

 

OK, I guess. So, I said that the decision to go 100% DCT with the 458 was based on sales of F1 in the 430 series and you said "it's not that simple"....and then said if the 3 pedal/F1 sales ratio was 50/50, then they (Ferrari) would have done it....what am I missing? Manuals disappeared in Ferraris because NO ONE BOUGHT THEM (when they had a choice). Period. It has nothing to do with engineering, Ferrari would have to be insane to engineer the car for 3 pedals when, very clearly, the overwhelming majority of Ferrari's CUSTOMERS don't want 3 pedals anymore.

Jimmy

 

As much as I appreciate a gated gearbox, this is the truth...