Enough with the Flappy-Paddles only

There is a very simple reason why they don't make manual supercars anymore. Unless I am much mistaken the gallardo in its last year sold 15 manual to its thousands of egear brethren, same case went for 599, same case went for 430. R&D on a new gearbox is huge money, and if only a minor handful of customers will purchase a 3 pedal car why burn the millions on it?

I'm kinda surprised the new m5 is offered with a manual. I suspect it will be the last gen to do so.

I also suspect the next gen 911 will ditch its manual in favour of a pdk only lineup.

New huracan is dsg only as well. And the aventador was isr only for same reason. Barely any murcies sold in manual.

The era of the manual supercars is over. I don't know if the r8 can still be had with a manual or if it is also dsg only.

 

The new Ferrari's are all automatic transmissions. There is zero manual input, other then clicking a paddle that is connected to a micro switch. All the driver is doing is opening and closeing a switch with a fancy toggle behined the steering wheel.

There is zero connection by the driver to the gearbox itself..none. That in my eyes makes it an automatic. Not having a torque converter has nothing to do with it. Keep the same gearbox, but get rid off the paddles and just have a button on the dash and 2 peddles, what do you have? An automatic. There is no true manual that has an auto mode.

 

People learn all about that as soon as they go racing. There is some chance of killing yourself when you race automobiles, even if your particular class is pretty far down the food chain.

If you don't drive fast enough to crash, you're not driving fast enough. That applies to pretty much any kind of automobile racing.

I'm not particularly afraid of dying (nobody has yet proved that it's bad for you in the long run) but I really don't want to be trapped inside an overturned car because the roof caved in while I slowly burn to death. Consequently when I drive a well prepared car with a roll cage, fuel cell, plus the other things which normally go along with these things like a fire suppression system, good fire suit, and a top-of-the-line helmet, I find myself driving a LOT faster than I do in an ordinary car.

That is also one good reason why I don't drive my Ferrari on the street at the limit. But that's just me.

 

The irony is that as the cars are, the manuals tend to command higher resale values than the automatics. Rarity? Perhaps. Also maybe the idea of owning a 20 year old car which needs repair. A clutch, TOB and slave cylinder I can get my head around. A, well, whatever is in that auto? Mm. No.

As all of these cars go quick enough to invite a custodial sentence, which is more fun? Not being a gadget geek, I prefer the stick. Even if I could drive track well, if it were my choice I would rather a day in a 312PB over the latest F1 Ferrari.

 

The prior V10 M5 started with a paddle only, such was the outcry in the uSA that BMW then offered a stick which 30% of buyers opted for. The new M5 is offered with a stick, but realisticaly the turbo lag is betetr handled with paddles.

M3's have had a 40% stick takeup rate, and you can even geta new M3/M4 in Europe with a stick.

The 911 may ditch a stick which will be no loss because the 7 speeder in the 991 sucks.

Caymans and boxters are 40% stick takeup.

The rpevious gen Gt3 was 100% and it was backordered.

Chev seems to be selling all the 75K z28s it can make stick only. The vette is also 40% stick takeup.

Jaguar has announced that they are now comming out with a stick version of the Fype after offerign auto only versions.

The dodge challenger has been 50% stick takeup.

Yes the R8 is offered with a stick.

If a car is designed with a stick in mind, instead of an afterthought the takeup rates seem to be in 30-40% range. BMW is aclassic example of acompany that tried to sell paddles only on the m5 saw sales dwindle, offered stick and saw a 30% takeup rate.

The stick is not dead amongst those who drive for the joy of it. True new ferrari fashion objects poseurs may not buy a stick, and as stick takeup rate was apprently 5% that says more about who buys a ferrari these days than the desires of true sportcar drivers.. But then you need fairly low self respect in the first place to go though all the fawning and crap it takes to get ferrari to sell you a new car.

What we are increasingly seeing is those sportscar makers looking for cred from those who actualy know are offerign a stick, witness the Ftype and upcomming cayman GT4.

 

F types are coming in stick!? Bravo jaguar

 

I doubt roll cages are legal for street use (?) Going without one when the speed limit is 65 or 70 doesn't seem like it would slow you down much.

 

There is no DCT option in a Corvette or Camaro. You have to take a slushbox automatic, or an old school manual. I haven't explored the Dodge Challenger, but would guess the same. Given those choices, yes, a three-pedal manual is as good as you're going to get.

Boxsters/Caymans do offer a nice old school manual, but check the sales figures on those cars -- the 987 Cayman was moving well under 100 units a month, the 981 version is still probably under 250.

Regarding BMWs, there are stats showing that only the US still clings to the three-pedal manual -- Europeans moved on a few years ago.

Your analysis would be more interesting if it compared performance cars where a DCT manual and three-pedal manual are both available. The F430 was the last data point from Ferrari, and I've seen figures ranging from 1% to "less than 10%" uptake on the three-pedal manual compared to DCT manual.

The base 991 would be interesting to analyze, because its buyers tend to be enthusiasts who can afford what they want. It's also an ultra-traditional car, so you will have older, automotively conservative buyers who don't want things to change too much. I think it would be the last bastion of the three-pedal manual.

 

The prior v10 m5 had a none too gentle smg trans not a cream smooth dct. And it was in a different price niche from the supercars.

40% takeup of manual on vettes is a sad figure if anything because the vette has a slushbox auto. Z28 is a pretty limited production model.

The previous gen gt3 were only offered in manual, so not sure where you are going with that where as the current one is pdk only.

I expect the next gen r8 to ditch the manual which personally makes me a sad panda.

I don't think the M3/M4 will ditch the manual because it is split between the people that have to have it all and with driving enthusiasts chasing the experience of driving an outstanding vehicle, and same case for the boxster/cayman duo. I don't expect the next m5 to have a manual, personally if I can find a v10 manual m5 in good nick, I very well might grab it.

Manual F-type means I now need a towel to clean up the mess I just made. WHY WOULD YOU TELL ME THIS? I have to get one now. My wallet will be a sad panda, I would be a happy panda.

 

Please allow me to explain another analogy: with the new geometry of modern carving skis it's easier to learn skiing. On the other hand you can take curves much more aggressive, the new skis allows a much more aggressive style of driving. Race technology which allows a wider range of application.


A few days ago I have seen the following video, it's very entertaining. At about 10 minutes you can hear few apposite statements about "newest car technology", including gear technology.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ntw8HTygA8]/DRIVE on NBC Sports: Monaco Special - YouTube[/ame]

 

Just to correct 2 things: DCT's are automatics, not manuals (if it will shift itself, it's an automatic). And the automatic (F1) offered in the 430 was not a DCT, it was a single clutch.

Jimmy

 

Perhaps it is.

Now who else makes mid engined sports cars with a stick ???????
If Ferrari won't then I have to look elsewhere......

 

Audi R8 V8 or V10

What will the next model bring?

 

I think you miss his point and then contradict yourself.

If the speed limit is 70 mph as you say and you dont go beserk speeds as a result,(lests say its a brisk pace instead) the theoretical "performance advantage" of a paddle is irrelevant, but it does take away from the drivign fun.

If ultimate speed is the goal, not paper bragging rights then relisticaly its at the track and then a padlle driven car has an advantage but would need a cage and fuel cells to really sanely go fast, so a street driven paddle ferrari on track is still not reallyas fasta s it coan go and is a compromise.

So the point is we all compromise ultimate speed for various reasons. That means the speed advantage offered by paddles on the street is spurious because realisticaly its unexploitable on the street. Well maybe its exploitable 0-60 and int he ME or some rare places with no traffic or speed limits and even then thta is debatable.

What paddles do is add convenience of an auto for traffic at the expense of driver engagement and detract on the open road from enjoyment at anything apporcahing sane pace.

This is what people here are saying. If you wnat to have fun with your car on the street, other than traffic, a stick is more engaging more skillful and more entertaining. Even on the track if skill and enetrtainment is the goal as opposed to pure laptimes a stick may be preferable, especialy considderign the long term maintanance delta.

What paddles are is a fancy fast AT, an AT that no only does not suffer a performace gap to a stick but on apper is faster. Yet like all ATs it suffers in terms of driver engagement skill and enjoyment. True in skilled hands on track its faster, true in traffic it more convenient, true some bimbo can drive it. But the cost in pretty much every other condition is somethign that puts some 30-40% of sportscar buyers off anbd they would liek a choice, or decamop to otehr brands.

 

Thanks for the video! Now I can romanticize about taking a journey on a train with my car! That looks really cool. But I have to say that even this video would have been better if the cars were manual transmission because then I wouldn't have to listen to them talking so much or see this...
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Yes, the ultimate speed limit on public roads is 70. Not per me, but per state law in California. Other states will vary, but you can verify online.

Most gear changes occur from 1st through 4th anyway, so you don't need a track to realize the performance of a given gearbox.

You can absolutely experience much faster performance 0-60 on public roads, so the benefits of a DCT manual over a three-pedal/lever manual are stark, every day, every time you drive.

Further:

1. Paddles can be equipped on a slushbox automatic, or a single clutch F1 manual, or a DCT manual. (Also, automatic clutches can be equiped in otherwise dead stock manual gearboxes like the old Porsche Sportomatic or the Valeo used in some Mondials.)

2. Yes, any bimbo can drive a DCT manual if she can figure out how to put it in auto mode. Not sure why that matters if there is a manual mode that you can select. The obsession with making sure someone else can't drive a car is odd, at best. Who cares?

3. The difference between an automatic, DCT manual and old school manual is massive. I've owned and driven all three. The Tiptronic I had on a Porsche 993 could be shifted from the steering wheel, but the actual gear change occurred whenever the transmission felt like it. No one would call it a manual, even if it had the little +/- buttons on the wheel and center console. I've also had two DSG Audis, and the shift speeds and control on both are in the millisecond range, to the point where you can upshift or downshift twice in far less time than a three-pedal/lever manual would allow. The slowest changing modern-ish gearbox I've owned/used was in a Ferrari 328, where the gate intentionally keeps you from shifting quickly. And the purest manual I've owned/driven, in my and others' Porsche 356, has a long mechanical linkage and for the life of the mechanism cannot be rushed. Old 911s are similar.

 

I think the argument has been that simply going faster is not the biggest part of the "satisfaction equation" or automatic would be the holy grail. Then Harris could hold two walkie talkies!

FWIW I think I can still shift from first to 6th faster than a 458, but I am not sure what I would do in 6th gear going 15 mph!!!!! LOL

 

These things rev so fast that trying to manually shift takes away from the concentration needed to keep them on the track/road at speed.
I buzzed a 458 and it was silly quick but wondered how much more fun it would be with a manual

I have a manual gearbox

 

Honestly, this thread completely misses the point as it argues the details while missing the big picture.

It's not a matter of paddle or no paddle.

It's what a sports car should or should not be that should be the issue.

Ferrari's (and Lambo's and McLaren's) of today are not really sports cars. They are GT's disguised as sports cars.

They are way too fast to use on city streets, just for the sake of some HP numbers for marketing purposes. They are way too plush at the expense of weight, cost, and driving experience. They have all the personality dialed out of them. They are big, heavy, and drive at low speeds with the same excitement of any Japanese sedan.

The paddles are just one of the methods used to turn sports cars into pseudo GT's that people can put in their garages and take their visiting family out when they visit.

Ferrari doesn't make a car like the 308 anymore (the car that really put Ferrari on the map in terms of sales).

It makes fancy Cadillacs in pretty clothes.

How do I know this? Because Ferrari can have people willing pay $1800 to have 2 $10 shields put on the side of their cars and 99% will think it's a great idea.

Because Ferrari can charge $3500 to put two electric seats in the car --adding another hundred pounds or so -- and 99% of the people will think its a bargain. Today the idea of placing your hand under the seat, pulling a bar, adjusting your seat is just sooooo 1980's. Push the button. I need to move my seat 2 inches to get out of the car.

It's about image and branding now. It's not about what the car does to you on the road anymore.

Ferrari was always a car for the rich. It wasn't always a car for the soft.

 

Yes, there are several reasons to buy a sports car other than performance, but per the OP's question many (most?) of us find it difficult to accept an intentionally slower 458. Ferrari being where it is in the market, the concept of producing a de-contented car is hard to accept. Fiat 500 Abarth? Definitely. Alfa 4C? Yes. Ferrari at $300K? As others have posted, it's not going to happen.

Also, a DCT is not even close to being the equivalent of a Tiptronic/automatic. The driving experience and raw performance are at opposite ends of the spectrum, with the old school manual somewhere in the middle of the performance range.

 

We own three cars with MTs...the only car with paddles is DCT 458 Spider. So if I get bored I can switch trannies.

The engines today are so flexible and have such a wide power band not nearly as much shifting is needed vs the olden days.

For instance, when I drive the back road to/from Aspen, after sta rting off the 6 speed Porsche just stays in 2nd gear. The speed limit on the road is 15-35 mph. Top speed in 2nd is about 70 mph. Never do over 60 so there is no need to upshift.

For the 458 Spider, 2nd gear is lower and I shift from 2nd to third and back as 3rd gear is the same speed per rpms.

Porsche Second Gear and 458 Third Gear:
2000 rpm = 20 mph
3000 rpm = 30 mph
4000 rpm = 40 mph
and so on.

So I actually shift more in the 458.
Performance in the Porsche is better if just left in 2nd gear. Guess I could shift for "fun" but I just do not see the point.

When out on the open highway not much shifting except when passing mostly...and this is mainly on two lane roads.

So is the "fun" of shifting a manual transmission a reality or a mindset?

Best

 

Nice! I'd take either the Porsche or the 458 for that drive!

 

Xactky

My CFOs son after reading about the new S class is deperate to get his license before alll the fun cars are gone, as he says we are already halfway there.

 

Honestly, this is some pretty impressive revisionist history going on here....
The 308 may have put Ferrari on the sales map but it certainly didn't keep them there. Ferrari was in MASSIVE trouble in the early 1990's, even Luca (then the new chairman) publicly slammed the car's lack of speed, handling, wonky ergonomics, etc. If you think Ferrari has gone too far (making the cars SO good they are now GT's), that's one thing. But don't beg for the bad old days because it was, indeed, bad. There is some happy medium to suit the "enthusiasts" but with Ferrari being more successful in the last 10 years then any other time in their history, it's awfully hard to make a case for the "de-contented, enthusiast" Ferrari.

Jimmy

 

Which car is the car?

It's a little hard to swallow "wonky ergonomics" being replaced with sticky switches throughout the interior.

The 308 has its primary controls in front of the driver and its secondary controls between the seats - all controlled by touch. Everything the driver needs and nothing he doesn't - unless you put in a radio. Sure, it's tight - it's a sports car, not a luxobarge - but "wonky?" i don't think so.