Enzo Ferrari with fascism period

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Christian.Fr, Jun 5, 2018.

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  1. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Please forgive my ignorance, but what has MVSN (Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale) to do with the Army and Army specialities, Mountain troops or the occupation of Fiume in early 1920? Weren't in Fiume not just Arditi troupes and no MVSN? From 1919-23 the formation was called 'squadristi' and just after 1923 'MVSN' (camice nere). And any idea if Carli or Ferrari were members of MVSN?
     
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  2. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Thank you all for participating, really!

    I think all history names (know, unknown in this picture) can be a seen for this thema.

    The picture shown is a part of history, not only, regime in this period but I m really
    interested to see if Ferrari get a participation during war.
    All great motor companies have their part, in Germany, Spain, Japan and Italia.

    Ferrari did it by obligation...?

    It will be interesting to know. Today many taboo are feld, probably there s nothing,
    Probably not?

    The truth, documents are very difficult to find between 1925 and 1944.

    In trying in my side with connection with Confindustria, Mr Volpi...
     
  3. PG1964

    PG1964 Formula Junior

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    I don't understand if you don't understand my English or what I'm trying to explain. Perhaps it's better for you to continue in PM and in Italian ?
     
  4. PG1964

    PG1964 Formula Junior

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    Somebody ask a question, I gave him an answer. Maybe you're thinking to something else, because you didn't read well what I wrote before.
     
  5. andymont

    andymont Formula Junior
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    #30 andymont, Jun 14, 2018 at 4:12 AM
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 4:17 AM
    The picture # 3 shows a race car (Alfa Romeo bimotore made in Modena by Scuderia Ferrari ) and a group of 20 people, among them we can easily identify Ferrari, Nuvolari, Bazzi and probably Corni.
    Somebody ( Christian.Fr ) asked where could be located this picture, guessing Modena or Bologna .

    Your answer was : " the location is Bologna because the company moved to Modena after the Orsi family purchasing only"

    Thinking to your answer ( and not to something else ...) , I kindly ask You :
    - which company are You speaking about ?
    - which company purchased the Orsi family, that could be related to this picture ? Alfa Romeo, Scuderia Ferrari, Lancia that built the car on the backside ? or perhaps Maserati....??
    - which company has been moved to Modena (from Bologna) ? Alfa Romeo, Scuderia Ferrari ? or perhaps Maserati....??

    Finally, tell me what does Orsi and/or Maserati have to do with this picture ?
     
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  6. andymont

    andymont Formula Junior
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    In any case the Alfa Romeo bimotore is dated 1935.
     
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  8. Ferrari_250tdf

    Ferrari_250tdf Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
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    During the war Ferrari built tooling machines for engines. I think I have read somewhere that after the war Franco Cortese helped Enzo to sell off the surplus of those machines.
     
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  9. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Thank you, for the detail. I notice the name of Franco Cortese for a research.
     
  10. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Find herewith attached a link concerning an interview with Piero Ferrari and
    Leo Turrini dated 28-11-2014.

    https://www.google.es/amp/www.iltempo.it/politica/2014/11/28/gallery/il-rosso-e-il-nero-961358/amp/

    So relationship with Enzo and Ducce wasn't with SF company but much more with Auto Avio Construczioni.
    This probably one reason that Ferrari wants to change the name of this company.
    ---------------

    Same text in English:

    On Enzo Ferrari, more commonly known as the Drake, it was written about everything and more. Sports encyclopedias, experts in the field, enthusiasts and fans of all kinds have been damned over the years to tell the man who changed the world of Italian sports cars. A taciturn gentleman, with a very active head and an overall vision to say the least futuristic for his time. In short, a genius of Italian entrepreneurship Lent, inevitably, to sport. A man all of a piece, never compromised, which has made his entrepreneurial capacity a piece of the history of Italy.

    But if the son Piero is to be told, the thing changes and much. Here then is a glimpse of the man Enzo, of the father lived inside the domestic walls. The exclusive testimony of Piero Ferrari, in the conversation with his friend Leo Turrii, reconstructs the life and career of the Drake who knew how to transform his life into an unrepeatable novel. A novel not only sporting but also recounting the relationship with the contemporary life of this incredible man.

    Below is a passage from the book (published by Wingsbert House) in which Piero tells the contradictory relationship of Ferrari with fascism.

    Piero Ferrari: My father in the end had a certain suspicion, towards politicians. Becoming one of them did not interest him. "

    Leo Turris: "Perhaps this distrust was a consequence of the contradictory relationship with fascism."

    F: "Uhm, here we go on a ground that, for personal reasons, I obviously do not know personally."

    T: "But he will know that, as the communist gave him, Enzo Ferrari was contested, previously, also an excessive closeness to the Benito Mussolini regime."

    F: My father had, with the Duce, a single close encounter. In 1924».

    T: "How did things go?"

    F: A senator from the kingdom, a certain neighbours, represented the College of Sassuolo. This neighbor called my father, who was still a pilot, to tell him about a project of the head of government. Mussolini wanted to travel the streets from Milan to Rome at the wheel of an Alfa Romeo, a three-seater spider. And in the transit along the way Emilia wanted to have company. So close contacted dad.

    To drive the Duce's car?

    No. Mussolini considered himself an excellent pilot. Maybe he wanted to confront a professional branch, I don't know. My father was given the task of treading with an alpha RLSS. Accepted. And for a whole day he accompanied the head of fascism.

    Can we say that a personal friendship was born?

    Don't over do it. Something less. Much less. They dined together in Sassuolo, then left for Pavullo. That's exhausted Dad's job. I think they talked so much about women and engines, two passions they certainly had in common. But little of politics. "

    T: «Yet, shortly after Enzo Ferrari is named Knight of the kingdom. He's just 26 years old. How could we not think of a link between recognition and the car tour with the Duce?»

    F: ' The same reasoning was made in 1946 by the Ministers of the Cleansing Committee introduced by the Minister of Justice and Grace. That, look at the coincidence, was the Togliatti.

    T: ' Was it a wrong reasoning? '

    F: With the appointment as a knight, the personal knowledge between dad and Mussolini had nothing to do with it. The honor had come through a fascist, a big piece of the Regime. But for sporting merits. '

    T: ' Sportsmen '.

    F: "Yes. Giacomo Immature was a minister of the first government of the Duce. His brother, Tino, had died at the front during the First World War. He was dedicated to a car race on the streets of Pescara. My father had played it and won it. Not only that: Dad gave a big hand to the immature minister in the organization of the test, guaranteeing the presence of eleven Alfa Romeo
     
  11. andymont

    andymont Formula Junior
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    "Ducce" is not correct, must be written Duce.

    The correct name of the journalist writer is LEO TURRINI .

    Giacomo Immature never existed, the correct name was Giacomo Acerbo . This is due to the use of Google Translator without any check...
    His Brother was Tito not Tino.
     
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  12. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Yes I put directly the translation in English without correction, but I think people notice this detail :)

    Anyway the interview confirm that Mussolini or Duce meet Enzo.

    Antonio Vicini, the man who introduced Enzo to the dictator.

    https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Vicini
     
  13. andymont

    andymont Formula Junior
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    #37 andymont, Jun 14, 2018 at 9:34 AM
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 9:41 AM
    This episode is referred exactly to the meeting between Enzo and Mussolini . The author says 1924 but is a mistake, and the correct year, for me, is 1934 .

    From the book of Leo Turrini : "Enzo Ferrari, an Italian hero":

    Ferrari was contacted by Senator Vicini.
    Vicini was the representative of the electoral district of Sassuolo, today the world capital of ceramic tiles, at that time was a small agricultural center in the province of Modena.
    The senator told to Enzo that Mussolini decided to have a long ride with his new car : an Alfa Romeo three-seater spider.
    He would leave Milan, with Rome as destination. Since the Duce intended to make a stop along the road, Vicini asked to Ferrari to accompany him along the roads of Emilia region.
    Enzo said yes, and ordered his mechanics to prepare his Alfa RLSS.

    Then he called an old modenese friend: Guido Corni, governor of Italian Somalia, and a great sportsman.
    "Our job is to be the pace car with the Duce, and I need a co-driver," Ferrari told to Corni.
    "All right Enzo, but please, do not drive as usual, because if the chief of government gets out of the road, we two, end up jailed..." Corni replied.
    That wasn’t just a joke: a few weeks earlier, Mussolini ordered to withdraw the driver's license to Fulvio Bernardini, a famous soccer player and later a great coach.
    "I had dared to overtake him on his car along the Aurelia road," told Bernardini...

    In any case Ferrari didn’t made any concessions at the wheel and, on the dusty road from Modena to Sassuolo, where Mussolini had planned to stop for lunch, Enzo drove his Alfa as engaged in a race. Behind him, the Duce took up the challenge. Even if the Duce's car was more performing, at every bend Mussolini lost ground..

    At the restaurant, the unusual opponents finished about half a minute back. But Mussolini seemed having nothing to complain: on the contrary, he said he had enjoyed very much the ride. Not true, he was lying...

    On the Duce's car, beside him, there was Ercole Boratto, a genuine racing driver, reduced in this case, to the rank of simple passenger.
    He probably would have had no difficulty in keeping up the pace of Ferrari, as he was a driver that later would have won a prestigious race in Libya, the Benghazi-Tripoli.

    During the lunch, Boratto approached Ferrari saying : "It would be better if you slow down, Mussolini is nervous, so if you continue in the same way, he will try everything to remain the closest to your car, but remember that I have a family at home ..."

    In the afternoon, the two Alfa resumed their journey. Ferrari had to lead the Duce till to Pavullo, a little town on the Modena Appennini.
    Although Ferrari's instinct suggested to continue the challenge, Boratto's heartfelt words prevailed. So the second part of the route was tackled without hurry.

    At Pavullo, taking leave, Mussolini thanked Enzo, and said him: "You gave me a great driving lesson".
     
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  15. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    #38 Christian.Fr, Jun 14, 2018 at 9:41 AM
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 9:48 AM

    Nice, nice Andrea.

    Now watching the picture #3 are you affirmative about the official is Mr Corni?
    I find a little resemblance to Antonio Vinici? What do you think?
     
  16. andymont

    andymont Formula Junior
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    It could be also Vicini the man with the uniform. He was a commander of MVSN .
     
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  17. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    #40 Christian.Fr, Jun 14, 2018 at 9:56 AM
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 10:02 AM
    Yep, I think too. The man in Wikipedia page looks that one.
     
  18. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    Sorry for any misunderstanding. Being an ignorant ‘foreigner’ I try to put it simple: In September 1919, D’Annunzio occupied Fiume with Arditi’ troupes (establishing Repubblica del Carnaro). In December 1920 the regular Italian Army and Navy recaptured Fiume with the battle ship ‘Andrea Doria’. MSVN formations did not exist end 1920 and has nothing to do with the Fiume conflict. Do you agree? And: Were Carli or Ferrari MSVN members?
     
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  19. Lowell

    Lowell Formula Junior
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    I don't know if I can type this long, but I will try.

    Starting on page 111 of "Enzo Ferrari" by Luca Dal Monte (English edition) we have:

    On April 9 (1924), Enzo made the acquaintance of Prime Minister Benito Mussolini. Personally driving his new three-seater Alfa Romeo convertible from Milan to Rome, Mussolini stopped in Modena to confer with Senator Vicini. Eager to capitalize on the presence of the head of the government, Vicini invited him to lunch in his home district of Sassuolo, a town about 1.5 miles from Modena. Enzo, a works Alfa Romeo racing driving of national fame, was commanded to take the lead of the column of cars that was accompanying Mussolini's. [ref. 9: Ferrari Le mie gioie terribili, p 171]

    At the wheel of his racing Alfa Romeo RL SS, Enzo led the way with the confident manner of the professional driver. Rain had fallen the night before, and the road was still damp. Worried that he'd lose contact with Enzo's car, Mussolini began to press of the accelerator, going so fast around some corners as to perilously skid. Once the column reached Sassuolo, some in Mussolini's party hurried over to Enzo, begging him to slow down the pace after lunch.

    Enzo did not attend the official lucheon, eating in the next room with Mussolini's personal driver, Ercole Boratto. In the afternoon he sat again behind the wheel of his Alfa Romeo escorting Il Duce along the twisty Apennines roads, this time, as promised, at a slower pace. In Pavullo nel Frignano the party stopped again because Mussolini wanted to visit an inn where he had stayed some time before when he's travelled to Livorno for an actual duel with a journalist (with guns). After a few minutes, the column started off again, always with Enzo in the lead. [ref 10: ibid p 172]

    When they all arrived at Abertone, the company broke up. Mussolini continued on to Rome, while Enzo returned to Modena. They would never meet again.
     
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  20. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Yes it helps, thank yiu fir your partucipation. It helps for the date, Enzo was always in good company, good friends, friends well placed. A circle friends, as ferrari Clubs doing today in all over world.
    Buissness first!


    I want to do a chronological line, it can helps to understand better.

    The difficulty, is to knik since when Ferrari touch subventions by gouvernement, but une uhing us sur je starting to received them in Modena, and then in Maranello for the new factory, during the Auto Avio Construczioni...
     
  21. PG1964

    PG1964 Formula Junior

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    Because my efforts in this thread are useless, may i suggest to Christian to make more researches before to ask something here, avoiding to add more and more inputs in different directions? No offense to anybody.

    P.S.
    About the uniforms, there are a lot of websites, with pictures, on the topic.
     
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  22. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    #45 Christian.Fr, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:15 PM
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018 at 1:20 PM
    Hello PG1964,
    I m interested by the thema, I do it for me, for the historical memory.

    II alway had this feeling that Enzo Ferrari always wanted to demystify this period before war which made very difficult the work of historians, feeding a double memory, the memory of the "vainqueurs", maintained official memory and "commemoration" by Ferrari.

    Enzo Ferrari was born of easy family, he was also a good man prepare (studies) who has learned his game thanks to the contacts due to his environment.
    He was able to live his passion, he was willing to do anything to see his goal achieved.

    His goal was to get a fascist, bankers Government subsidies (funds)

    He was perfectly aware of his actions.
    There contribute to the greatness of the Duce, and has been an accomplice to crimes of war in an indirect way.
     
  23. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
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    I think his goal was to survive in the harsh political environment of the times. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
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  24. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Tifoso,
    Question of survival, yes all we do that.
    Some will go to resistance, others want to go away, some want to stay, others do business.

    Humm... he was very ambitious guy. His idea was pull by his passion. CARS.

    At the same time, I get a document concerning a Jewish family in Modena.
    Nobody comes back. (Just want to say, enemy was Jewish in all Europe).
     
  25. andymont

    andymont Formula Junior
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    This ground is very very slippery...
    In any case, I agree about the goal of Enzo Ferrari that was to save himself and his family, to preserve the factory, his workers and their families.
    So till 1943 he did the same of what ALL Italians did till at that time, and after, as well known, he straddled both worlds, looking friendly at the Germans's eyes but, in the mean time, he secretly hid the resistance partisans and their weapons in the factory of Maranello. So he did till the end of the war, but doing this, he achieved his goal.
     
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  26. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
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    I don't know of this. Do you care to be more specific?
     
  27. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    You can count in months, I start the search three weeks ago.
    I do not speak Italian so I do not feel idle in my steps. Many sites do not adopt any mode of translation, and the official sites do not talk about it.

    In short, it is only happiness...:)
     

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