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Enzo in Sport Auto Supertest ?

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by taunus, Mar 29, 2005.

  1. taunus

    taunus Formula Junior

    Jan 24, 2002
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    Ansgar
    I have read this on another board, is there any confirmation ?

    "...i can´t believe what i´ve just heared - in spring 2005, so not that far away, HvS from Sport Auto will get a Ferrari Enzo Ferrari for their Supertest, and from what i have heared they´ll get it directly from the factory - now i´d like to hear some confidential infos if anyone from the Ferrari freaks in here have heared anything about the rumours that Ferrari has been working on a special Nordschleife setup for the Enzo after they received MASSIVE complaints - of course everything in the background - why they don´t respond to the Carrera GT´s lap time and whenever a comparison took place on a track the GT´s been in front...

    so we know that during industry pool sessions Ferrari sometimes rented a workshop inside the industrial park right next to the NS and they clocked quite some laps with an Enzo - there´s also a rumour that Ferrari now has a so called "full car" test rig from AVL where engineers can simulate all stored tracks on the car itself, i only know that VAG, BMW and Porsche have such a ( extremely sophisticated and expensive ) test rig...

    ...as HvS told some time ago... "Sport Auto is just a kinda small mag and basically consists and concentrates on only one thing - the Supertest - but the results of this test are known all over the world because NO other information source is providing onfidential and detailed infos about the hardest challenge for any sports car - a timed lap on the Nordschleife..."

    ...this says it all IMO - an outstanding lap time at NS is good for becomming a classic and reaching automotive heaven, let´s hope that Ferrari will continue this project for all their future cars, personally i´m definitely looking forward to an interesting challenge Ferrari vs Porsche ( and all the others ) at the Nordschleife and can´t wait for the SA Supertest in spring/summer 05..."
     
  2. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Seing as how close the CGT and Enzo are in terms of HP , Tq , weight etc, i dont see the Enzo lapping the ring faster since the P was developped there . The Enzo might have a few laps done on it but thats after the car was already developped and it cant be compared to the thousands of kms the CGT mules have done on the Ring.
     
  3. CAR Élite

    CAR Élite Formula Junior

    Nov 15, 2003
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    I think you read this at "RumourTEAM", Ansgar :D

    That news was written in many other boards before, I've seen that even at some small little car fan board*g*...looks like they guy at RumourTEAM has copied the text from one of them.

    The only hint about this test taking place was a comment on a readers letter in the mag some months ago. I personally don't believe that Ferrari will give an Enzo to Sport Auto due to the fact that all cars are already sold and they have nothing to prove to future customers. The Enzo was at NS more than one time long long before the car was shown to the public, Ferrari knows how fast it is. Maybe that's another reason why it will not show up in the mag.

    ...as said, all cars are sold. None of the the owners would care about if the Enzo be some seconds slower than the CGT. The Nordschleife is no "race track", it's not flat enough. The extreme setup of the Enzo fits best on tracks like Hockenheim, Monza or even Spa. The CGT is street car, it was desinged at and for the Nordschleife - Porsches' second home...not a real "race" car.

    www.car-elite.com
     
  4. richard

    richard Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Yes and no....many German car companies develop cars at the ring -- it is not uncommon, and the CGT was certainly not developed there exlcusively. The reason it is used for car development so widely is because the conditions encountered in its 14 miles represent the majority of driving/racing scenarios presented in a real life. If you read some associated literature you'll find that the development of the Carrera GT is fundamentally more whole than that of the Enzo as the CGT (as with most production Porsche cars) undergoes desert and arctic testic to ensure durability and reliability under extreme conditions in addition to countless other tests which make the Porsche a more full-bodied car.

    Back to the nurburgring example (and to reiterate what you said) the Porsche is set up as more of a track car than the Enzo, no other way about it. It generates more drag and downforce, one of the main reasons it is so much slower than the Enzo 0-300.

    There is no doubt in mind (having been in both these cars on the road and track) which one would be faster at the 'Ring...
     
  5. richard

    richard Formula 3

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    What planet are you from where a racetrack has to be flat? I can think of countless racetrracks here in the US with lots of eleveation changes, many of them are even famous for their elevation changes...("the corkscrew" at LS comes to mind).

    Extreme setup? Not anywhere near as extreme as the CGT. Additionally all of the tracks you listed have substantial straightaways, which just happens to be Enzo material as it is quicker in a straight line (more power and less drag).

    The CGT isn't a real racecar? I again am forced to ask what planet you're from...all of the mechanical components of the CGT are derived directly from a prototype LeMans effort, which, last I checked, is a much more direct application of racing to road cars than the Enzo is.
     
  6. HoboPie

    HoboPie Karting

    Apr 16, 2004
    212
    Race tracks do not have to be flat, but most tracks in Europe are considerably smoother than those in American. Though I can't say the same thing for the roads.;)

    The Enzo is setup more extremely in that it is even more specialized than the CGT. The Enzo is designed to go quickly on flatter tracks. It was designed on a track built for F1 cars. That is just the nature of most Ferraris.

    I think you could argue the MC12 is pretty directly related to the Enzo, but the CGT is definitely a racecar in terms of tech, but Porsche toned down many of the internal and subconcious signs that it is a racecar. The Enzo more capable or not is certainly more raw.

    I've heard the CGT is setup for more downforce from an interview with Walter Rohrl over a year ago, but no data backs that up. The Enzo appears to produce more downforce in pretty much ever situation. However, the CGT may be a more downforce oriented car. By that I mean when Porsche and Ferrari were considering the tradeoffs specific to their cars Porsche may have selected a more downforce oriented package.

    I give this whole Sport Auto test rumour some weight because the person who first introduced it to me was a guy from a couple forums that actually works as an engineer for Porsche. He believes that the CGT can beat the Enzo at Nurburgring, but well before even the comparisons articles started popping up he said he believed the Enzo might be able to beat the CGT at an F1 style track like Hockenheim.

    What gives that idea some weight is the Challenge Stradale. It is a couple seconds slower than the 911 GT3 at Nurburgring, but .2 seconds quicker at Hockenheim. It may not seem like much, but as a percentage of a total lap they are comparable. It's like .3% to .4% or something like that.
     
  7. richard

    richard Formula 3

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    HP,

    I agree with you. It is amazing how tame the CGT seems....from the inside you'd never know what type of car you are driving! On the subject of downforce...the wing on the back generates a large amount of it, and because it is so dynamic (so many positions and angles) I would say the data you've seen is largely dependent on wing positioning.

    You are spot-on with the analogy about 996GT3 v. 360CS. It is a LeMans-type vs. F1-type comparison.
     
  8. CAR Élite

    CAR Élite Formula Junior

    Nov 15, 2003
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    Well well you did your homework. But I think to create such a "nice" response to me you should have been a bit more involved into the factory as I am.

    I know Mr. Dürheimer, he's the "CGT" man at Porsche, and since 2001 a CEO. As he told me more than one time the Nordschleife IS their benchmark for all cars. That's the reason why the CGT could be seen every week on track being tested for the best setup. So...it was not developed there? ;-)


    Really? Wrong. Please check out recent car tests. It's the other way round. They had to install some aero components on the CGT due to the fact that it did NOT produce enough downforce in the beginning. The car did not always have a rear wing. But this is a fact that people reading car mags can't know...;-)

    The thing you said about faster in the straight...I don't think that a difference of less than 1 second from 0-200 (with the Enzo using the LC) is so much faster...? *g*

    That's what I said. The CGT will be faster at NS, but Hockenheim? :D

    Big excuse, flat is the wrong word. Meant was "smooth". I'm not a native, man!

    Yes, extreme setup. As Hobo says (and it looks like he understands the things I said) the Enzo is even more specialized than the CGT, more raw. It IS a race car for F1-style tracks. Hands down. Or why do you think the mentioned Porsche engineer is afraid of the Enzo's lap time at Hockenheim?

    Wow...so the new BMW M5 must be a race car too! Unbelievable. It has a V10 from a Formula 1 car!!

    Thanks! Again, that's what I said.

    www.car-elite.com
     
  9. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    From all the datas i have read , the Enzo produces more Downforce than the CGT .
     
  10. richard

    richard Formula 3

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    There is fault in some of the things you've said, but I'm not going to continue debating the point with you. As you said, English isn't your first language...you're missing part of my point or maybe not making yours clearly.
     
  11. CAR Élite

    CAR Élite Formula Junior

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    Nice try. Are you studying "arrogance"? ;-)
     
  12. richard

    richard Formula 3

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    I was not trying to be arrogant, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt -- seems to me like something is being lost in translation. But if you want to get cute with me, fair is fair...

    Bragging about factory involvement means nothing to me. Who are you? Are you employed by Porsche or Ferrari, and did you work on either the Enzo of Carrera GT projects? I honestly have no idea if you were involved or not. Either way it is of little importance.

    I never debated this. Almost all German marques and many others (Japanese, American, Italian, etc) take cars to the ring for testing. Do more German car companies take their cars to the 'Ring because it is home turf? Probably. Does that mean it is the only testing they recieve? Most certainly not -- the CGT development cycle landed the car all over the world, from the 'Ring to Death Vallery here in the US. Saying that the car was developed explicitly for use on the Nurburgring is silly and naive. As I previously stated, the Nurburgring is used as a testbed for cars because it represents such a wide variety of driving conditions. That means they can kill many birds with one stone by testing there. Again, loads and loads of manufacturers test there, so it must not be as worthless a racetrack as you would have people think.

    REALLY?!?!? Are you telling me they actually added aerodynamic components during the development stages of a car?!?!? That's unbelievable -- they actually used the development period to develop the car! INCREDIBLE! You must be some kind of genius!!!

    Read my post. I said 0-300, and according to the test data from Nardo the Enzo accelerates to 300 in 26.1 seconds while the CGT takes 34.2. If you do the math you'll find the difference to be a somewhat dramatic 8.1 seconds, not the "1 second" you quoted above. I'd advise you to research your numbers instead of telling me to more carefully analzye mine.

    Excuse me, the CGT is less specialized? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills by humoring your backwards rambling. The Carrera GT is derived _directly_ from an aborted LeMans effort. This means all of the mechanicals are straight out of a race car with very little compromise for road use, except when safety requires it. Hence all the owner complaints about clutch engagement, brakes, etc. If the Enzo "IS" a racecar for F1-style tracks, then the Carrera GT IS a racecar for pretty much everything else (LeMans being what it is), and it has the durability/reliability to keep on tickin' long after the Enzo is in for a clutch or transmission job.

    When, at any point in time, was Hockenheim a deciding factor in ANYTHING? Yes, it is a wonderful track...but quit hanging on this lame point -- no credible or qualified source in the world would rate Hockenheim over the 'Ring for any kind of road car development. Make no mistake, that is what we are debating here: road car development. Because these cars, while fast, are road cars. Neither of them come from the factory with a single seat, race telemetry equipment, fire systems, nor a crew of mechanics to back it all up. If you want to argue pure racing, you can do it until you're blue in the face but it's off topic and completely irrelevant in a thread about road cars and the compromises they have to meet or make on a daily basis.

    The crack you smoke overseas must be amazing stuff. I really can't fathom which region of your @ss you pulled this load from, but you need to (for the second time this post) stop telling me to check my sources and start doing it yourself. Short of the cylinder count and possibly some computer management, the new M5 motor shares little to nothing with the BMW/Williams F1 motor. Furhtermore, the rest of the M5 is a cookie-cutter european sport sedan with a standard chassis, wheels, tires, trunk, four doors, etc. By your @ss-backwards comparison, the Carrera GT has a LeMans V10 motor fit into a racing chassis where the engine is a stressed member. The entire car including monocoque is carbon fibre, and every possible component (while taking heed of safety regulations) is made just as in a real racecar. Now please tell me...how is the new M5 a racecar by comparison?

    I do ask (and I know it may be tough) that you dust off the ol' thinking cap and plant that sucker firmly on your head before you reply with the irrationality characteristic of your replies to me.
     
  13. CAR Élite

    CAR Élite Formula Junior

    Nov 15, 2003
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    Sebastian
    Much better, really. That must be the reason why the people here like you and your posts so much. Great!

    Right, and I would not even tell you about that.

    I never said that the Ring is worthless.

    Yes, in some ways. But be honest: All the things you know and tell me about the CGT are written in that stupid Porsche book. A very good source. But, to know a bit more about car engineering and the development stages could be helpful. To add a rear wing 2 or 3 months before the car goes into production because you find out that it's instable at high speeds and produces a low amount of down force on tracks is...well...not a common step in development in Europe.

    Even if it was 0-330, it makes no difference. I have been at an AMS Nardo test in 2002 and know how "reliable" the tests are. The Enzo tested had some more power than 660 bhp. But again, this is not listed in your books and mags. This is practice, not theory.

    To get back to the point: The difference in the straight on a race track between CGT and Enzo is too little to talk about. Not even in Spa you reach more than 250 kph with one of these cars. And, if you are as smart as you pretend to be: why is the CGT so much slower from 0-300? To give you a hint: it's not primary because of aerodynamics.

    Now we got it. That was my statement. The Enzo is fast on F1-style tracks, the CGT a little slower there - but FASTER on tracks like the Ring. Because the ring is a track with all-round qualities, as you mentioned it. We could close the topic now, glad you wrote that.

    As written above, Hockenheim is a deciding factor due to the fact that we discussed which of the cars likes F1-Style-Tracks better and why I think that the Enzo will not be tested by Sport Auto at the Ring. And Hockenheim is a perfect example for that. Now we return to the beginning of the discussion.

    Ok, looks like you don't like my jokes. Maybe because I'm not from the US.

    And THIS is the reason why I will not discuss with you any more. Please, in the future: stop comments like that. Sounds like you're kind of a young boy.
     
  14. richard

    richard Formula 3

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    Amazing. You ignore my points where it suits you or you can't defend yourself, you contradict yourself, and you write off verifiable information as making "no difference", instead telling us that your own information (which happens to have no credible source or backup) is what really counts.

    What am I missing here?
     
  15. taunus

    taunus Formula Junior

    Jan 24, 2002
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    Ansgar
  16. taunus

    taunus Formula Junior

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    Ansgar

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