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Enzo & Murcielago are Italian Exotics?

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by urraco, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. urraco

    urraco Formula Junior

    Feb 18, 2004
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    Italian designers built a reputation of creating the world's best looking cars back in the 60's and 70's .for instance Marcello Gandini designed the gorgeous Lambo Miura (1966) while Leonardo Fioravanti penned the amazing F 308 (1975) and that list goes on from the Countach (1974) to the Testarossa (1984) or even as early as the XV century with Art icons such as DaVinci or Michelangelo but now in this XXI century, Modern incarnations of both Italian dreamcar makers are drawn by non-italian people, Murcielago was a design of a Belgian Audi employee named Luc Donkewolke while Ferrari's flagship :Enzo was conceived by a japanese guy (Ken Okuyama). So my question to all of you F- community is: Can these 2 cars be considered true descendants of old school avantgarde Italian design ?
     
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  3. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran
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    There are many ways to test art.

    Most Modern art looks like junk to me :) I love to watch the art world...people with too much money buying the ideas of artist.

    Seems we should be able to make a test that works for our Italian friends that make cars

    I have only found one test that really works for me. If you can sell $20,000 worth of metal,plastic, rubber, and glass for over $275,000 .... and there is a line of experts lining up to buy it....its art!
     
  4. docdavid

    docdavid Formula Junior

    Jan 23, 2004
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    Proboably not, but the fact is that they are still both fabulous cars produced by fabulous marques. Were the cars assembled over sees in whole or in part i might see a problem, but these companys want to produce the best product regardless of the designers nationality.
    MD
     
  5. gabriel

    gabriel Formula 3

    IMO, no.
     
  6. JSinNOLA

    JSinNOLA F1 World Champ
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    Mar 18, 2002
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    I say no. Kind of like you have to have been born an American citezen to run for the office of President. The same rule should apply. Even though a lot of me says the rule will be antiquated eventually.
     
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  8. PINNIN512

    PINNIN512 Formula 3

    Aug 30, 2002
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    I agree . I am an Automotive designer and graduated the same school as ken and see a typical copy and refine attitude most Japanese designers have. I work for a Japanese company and probably get fired for saying this :).I am not saying anything negative about Ken but an Italian supercar should have the Italian bloodline that goes into the design. Part of learning Automotive design is to appreciate the Italian Designers and there work. Don't really want to see pictures of Japanese designers in Cavallino.I might just cancel my subscription. Please excuse my giddy .........I am celebrating Martha Stewart .
     
  9. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
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    It seems that the final OK for a design rests with an Italian as far as Ferrari is concerned.

    I'm not sure about Lambo.

    But, I am not a big fan of the over-windtunneled designs...

    Ferrari's should scream F-E-R-R-A-R-I when they go by, both in looks and sound to even a casual observer.

    Todays designs get people joking about Supra's, Mustangs, and clown shoes and god knows what else.
     
  10. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Sep 25, 2002
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    I dont care as much who designs it, it can be a cheeseburger for all I care, but it should at a glance say Ferrari, make my smile, and brighten my day.
     
  11. Tyler

    Tyler F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2001
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    I agree as well.
     
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  13. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
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    The Murcielago has grown on me. I have an 86 Countach so I know the car. I saw a Countach parked next to a Murc & when you see both cars front view you can see where the Murc got its nose from. Side view & the Countach is much better but the Murc isnt too far behind. The rear is the worst part of the Murc for me. I would rather have Gandini do the next one though. The Gallardo by the way I really dont care for. I saw 1 in person & it looks like a large Toyota

    The Enzo on the other hand is a complete disaster lookswise IMO. Ok so the nose sort of resembles an F1 car, but F1 cars are ugly too. The Enzo looks to me like something out of a Japanese Transformers cartoon rather than a Ferrari. I'd take an F40 over it in a heartbeat
     
  14. Uberpower

    Uberpower Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2004
    902
    You know... I think I would REALLY like the Murci if it wasn't for all the non-colored body panels ala Audi. Makes it look plastic-ey and cheap in my opinion like an A4 or one of those new Chevrolet pickups with the grey body armor.

    blah.
     
  15. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran
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    I think you could make a nice case for the new Italian flag in these colors.
     
  16. prova

    prova Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Don't forget that Ken Okuyama is working for Pininfarina, even if he is Japanese, his influence is italian...
     
  17. KEFLON

    KEFLON Rookie

    Feb 1, 2004
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    Iam a british born pakistani who is studying automotive design, my goal is to land a crearer with a top italian design firm like pinnin/ferrari! Altho I am not italian, if say ferrari was to produce my design then the car would be an italian design because end of the design if perfected by a team of deisgners of mixed race whom work for an italian company plus its an italian company that manufacture the car. This clearly makes it an italian design.
     
  18. alx355gt

    alx355gt F1 Veteran

    Feb 3, 2004
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    Saying you want an Italian designer for an Italian car is almost the same as only letting Italian drivers drive the Ferrari F1 cars IMO. If you can recruit a good designer who captures the marque's image, it doesn't matter from wich country he (or she) is. Do you really think there haven't been designers from other countries working for Pininfarina before f.e.?)
    Sometimes a foreigner can make a differance.
    When did the last Italian won the F1 worldchampionschip?
    Ferrari always stays an Italian-styled car, no matter who designs it.


    Mmm, you're missing a white Maserati in the middle. :)

    Greets, Alex.
     
  19. KEFLON

    KEFLON Rookie

    Feb 1, 2004
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    I forgot this when i was saying my piece 'ITALIAN INFLUENCE' !!!
     
  20. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    #17 DeSoto, Mar 9, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I don´t care about the nationality of the man who designs the car. The Legend was born in Italy but now it´s universal.

    BUT that guy of Audi who is making Lamborghinis thinks that all Lamborghinis must be like the Countach and that Japanese of Pininfarina... well, he´s got ideas but he has to work his style yet.

    Have you ever seen the original design for the Lambo Murciélago by Zagato? When Audi got the control of Lamborghini, the first thing they made was replacing this design by the current one made his man. I prefer Zagato´s one: maybe it´s no so aerodinamic or practical but a Lamborghini can be everything except boring. Here is a prototype.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    #18 DeSoto, Mar 9, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  22. Mark(study)

    Mark(study) F1 Veteran
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    I'm glad they changed it
     
  23. whimike

    whimike Karting

    Jul 26, 2003
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    Los Gatos, CA
    Can the Corvette Stingray, Z-28 Camaro, and BOSS 302 Mustang be considered American design? Most probably don't know this, but these three cars were designed by a Japanese-American, Larry Shinoda.

    To me these three cars are as American as it gets. So, I don't believe the nationality of the designer has much impact on the "true descendants of old school avantgarde Italian design". I think typically it is well beyond just the single designer, there are several other designers that typically work with that single designer and there are modifications made along the way by management which all work to bring about that Italian-ness.

    -- Michael
     
  24. gabriel

    gabriel Formula 3

    So, if it looks like a yugo, it's still an italian styled car no matter who designed it just as long as its nameplate reads Ferrari?

    No. I disagree entirely. I dont give a d@mn who designed the cars originally stated in the question:

    Can these 2 cars be considered true descendants of old school avantgarde Italian design ?

    Again, no.
     
  25. alx355gt

    alx355gt F1 Veteran

    Feb 3, 2004
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    Sorry, I actually meant it this way...
    If Ferrari can recruit a good designer who captures the marque's image, it doesn't matter from wich country he (or she) is. In this case Ferrari always stays an Italian-styled car, no matter who designs it, because they will make sure the legend will live on. Of course they wouldn't let a yugo-designer anywhere near the drawing board. I don't think you get a job there that easily :) But again, do you really think there haven't been tdesigners from other countries working for Pininfarina before f.e.?
    What I'm trying to say; sometimes a foreigner can make a differance. When did the last Italian won the F1 worldchampionschip? F.e. the last few years they needed a German to do just that, and he did and stil does it good. They just try to find the best people to do the job, no matter where they are born. It's simply as that!

    So, something can still have it's own roots and/or national influences, etc... even when a good foreigner is involved in the production proces. It even can be refreshing!

    Let me put it this way, if you want to make a car and only search for designers in your own country, you simply exclude a lot of people who maybe could do the job even better. Again, capturing the brand's spirit or image is VERY important for a designer. You're not a good designer if you can't do that! The (Belgian BTW) designer of the latest Bentley, also drawed some Skoda models before. Totally different cars with a totally different spirit. It's just about finding what's important for which car. Skoda has off course different expectations than Bentley.

    edit; just to make sure; the Skoda/Bentley designer I meant was Dirk Van Braekel. And these are the cars. I guess you can easily see wich one is the Bentley? :)

    Of course, just my opinion.

    Greets, Alex.
     
  26. gabriel

    gabriel Formula 3

    >What I'm trying to say; sometimes a foreigner can make a differance

    I agree.

    >When did the last Italian won the F1 worldchampionschip? F.e. the last few years they needed a German to do just that, and he did and stil does it good.

    Since my last name is Shumaker, I'm not going to disagree with that. :)

    >If Ferrari can recruit a good designer who captures the marque's image, it doesn't matter from wich country he (or she) is. In this case Ferrari always stays an Italian-styled car, no matter who designs it, because they will make sure the legend will live on.

    I believe that we are very close in our statements.

    Since this was the original question:
    "Can these 2 cars be considered true descendants of old school avantgarde Italian design?",
    I still say no, Ferrari has NOT recruited a good designer who, irrespective of his nationality, has captured the marque's image, and the original question is still answered in the negative.
     
  27. alx355gt

    alx355gt F1 Veteran

    Feb 3, 2004
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    No, prob.
    So we mostly agree :)
    But my opinion is they didn't do the job that bad :). It wasn't an easy task to design a new supercar. And hey, it could have been worse IMO.
    Let's see what they'll do with the next one :).

    Greets, Alex.
     
  28. Testacojones

    Testacojones F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Terra
    Anyways the designer of the Murcielago is from Peru. His family background I think is from Belgium, but all the white people from America are from Europe. America is everything in this side even Cuba is America. Also the designer of the new Ford GT is hispanic. Remember that all that matters is the taste of the individual not in what country they were born.
     

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