Enzo or McLaren F1?

I saw a ''Best Motoring ''video of the F1 and they were doing a slalom test and the car was all over the place. (note : it finished last place in the race)
Even in the Top Gear video of the F1 you see all the body rolls. (You didn't see it?)

When Jeremy Clarkson tested the F50 said :

even at this speed the McLaren F1 would have steam ship body roll. But the F50 stays as flat as a mill pond through the corners...because theres no rubber in the suspension, BANG! you turn the wheel and its just incredible!! I know of no car that turns into a corner like this one. Nothing!"


Skidpad: 0.86g (R&T)

Anyway you drove the F1 so you have a better opinion on the handling. Did you pushed the F1 to its limits in curves?

Maybe I was a bit hard on the F1...I'm sure the handling is good on one of the most succesful car ever made.
But I still think the Enzo is better in handling.

 

I'll fling myself into this argument with some of my own observations. First of all, my choice is the McLaren and by quite some margin. Now the observations:

1. The Enzo is a large car compared to the McLaren. I have always been impressed how small the F1 actually is. It is about the size of an M3 and reminds me of the early Countaches with how low it is.

2 . Performance wise, the Mclaren achieved what it did 10 years ago and that is an eternity in car design terms. I think that a performance comparision is not fair however it is impressive to see how close the numbers on the 2 cars actually are.

3. Rarity. 399 units compared to about 65 road versions of the F1 (101 cars in total but some were race cars). The world is a big place so this stat is a little more of an ego booster than anything else.

4. Build quality on the McLaren is phenomenal and it offers the owner some nice ammenities not available on the Enzo.

Finally on a personal note is the styling. I to this day do not like the styling on the Enzo. It is easy to get taken by the fact that it is an exotic Ferrari but in the cold light of day, I still think that the styling is off. The McLaren on the other hand, to me looks like a much tighter package. Once again this is only my opinion.

 

I think you meant to say F1 here.

I still have the R&T issue. He has the Christian fish symbol on the back of it, and commented how the passenger seats - although sealed up due to US regulations/conversions, got extremely hot, so he had to put towels down.

Can you share your driving experience with the car?

 

Why does exclusivity keep coming up in this thread (and others)...? If there were a 1,000 McLarens, would that sway some of the decisions made here...? What difference does it make if there's 100 or 400...? Or 1,000 or more...? You folks aren't into these cars for the exclusivity of it all, are you...?

 

Seems to me that bodyroll isn't all that bad. It puts some drivability into the car, and provides a particular characteristic of turn in. But of course, that all depends how you look at it.

Body roll isn't all that bad, when you know what to do with it. "Stiff" cars do not make it better suspension wise. Nor does it mean that a stiffer car will handle better than a non-stiffer one will. For instance a purpose built race car has solid bushings, which cause zero deflection. This means that the driver comfort was thrown out the window in order to achieve direct response to the suspension. This also creates a significant load on the tires, more so than a street car. Hence, the added need for stickier tires.

But even all of that doesn't mean that one car will handle better than the other because it is stiffer. Ya know, it just might. But as a street car is concerned, I would doubt it.

That said, the F1 isn't a supercar, it is more of the Ultimate Car - because it can and could be driven every day, all over the place - and perform wonderfully anywhere except at the gas station.

 

Yes I heard that, and it costed his $40k for the mainshaft, + $30k or $32k to fly the mechanic and install it (+normal servicing).

Well, that's the price of a "not-that-used" F-car...

Before he sells it, can he do an open house for those of use who beleive this THE best supercar ever?...

 

Schatten,

The reason the seats got so hot on the return trip to Texas is because he could not install them until after the car was federalized. Consequently his wife rode on towels in the seatwell all the way back to Texas. She said she would not do that again. He also had to leave those ugly bumper things on the car until it was federalized. As soon as it passed the seats were installed and the bumper pads removed.

Driving impressions:

It was a little difficult to get used to getting past the outboard seat in order to reach the center one. However, the car does have a Lemans style removable steering wheel so it helped some. The clutch and brake pedals are very close together as in any race car and you need to be careful about where you are placing your feet.

The shifter has a very short throw and is not notchy at all. I found it very easy to operate and was never bothered by a false neutral. Clutch pressure was not as strong as I would have thought. I drove it around and my leg muscles did not start to cramp from the pressure usually needed to operate a clutch on a car of this performance.

Cornering: The big question here:
Yes, it has more body roll than the Enzo but nothing compared to other stock cars in the performance category. It is a controlled roll and if you anticipate the movement of the car, it is not a problem. It does require you to think ahead as you are cornering. You cannot play catch up with the suspension of this car. It will spring on you in a hurry if you enter a corner without anticipating suspension movement. Just remember to be properly braked, in the proper gear and in the proper place when you enter the corner (like they teach you in all racing schools). Roll the throttle thru the apex and exit of the corner and do not fully accelerate until you are pointing the direction of your next line. Stab the throttle of this car halfway thru a corner and you will catch your rear end passing you to the front. I was fortunate to only get the car sideways once and fortuanately the area was wide enough that the car recovered with no harm. It will ride the track very well if you just think ahead and anticipate every manuver.

Acceleration:
0-60 3.4
0-100 6.1
I did not have room or the cahones to take the car above 175. However, I can tell you that it was still pulling as strong at 175 as it did at 80 mph.
Once, with my son in the left seat and my wife in the right one we were stopped at a red light when a younger person in a BMW 3 series pulled up beside us. I happened to know him. He is one of those type who get a 325 and put M markings on it and want you to think they have an M3. He recoginized me and motioned to open the window. You know the driver side window opening on the McLaren only opens for the lower part of the window and then not so far. He asked me what kind of kit car I was driving. I told him it was not a kit. He did not know what a McLaren is. He challenged me to a drag race from the light because he had "just put an ultra high performance chip" in his car and said he was going around killing Vettes and Porsches now. I told him I had no desire to race him an nothing to prove by doing so. He continued to hound me and actually said that I was probably too scared to embarass myself in front of "that kid and old woman you have riding with you". You have to know my wife. She said, "James, kick the little b**tards a**". My son leaned forward to see out the lower window opening just about the time the light turned green.. The smart a** in the BMW squealed his tires as he moved away. I waited a fraction of second and accelerated hard away from the light. The force of acceleration was so strong that it slammed my sons head back against the lightly padded seat and almost knocked him out. As I shifted into second and accelerated up he began to cry so I immediately pulled over to the side of the road to check on him. Only after I had come to a full stop, taken off my seatbelt and turned to check on my son did I notice that the BMW was still acceleration at full throttle and finally passed me. The little SOB came by the dealership the next day bragging to his friends how he had beat this car. I asked if he had his title and offered the title to the McLaren up against his for a race like yesterday. He would not take me up on the offer.

As far as disclosing his name. In the 1997 Road and Track article it says that "car belongs to a gentleman from Texas who prefers to remain annonymous". I will honor his wishes and refrain from giving out his name.

 

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.......................your making excuses!

Either it goes 240 OR IT DOESN'T.

Road and Track's December 2002 issue say it goes a drag constrained 217 mph.

Rylex, if my memory serves me right Gordon Murray had exclusive rights to the engine for 10 years. Also the engine would make the price of a Z8 well over 300K. Maybe Audiguy can chime in but I seem to recall that estimates put the price of an engine at 240K.

As for the Maserati being raced. Let's wait and see how it does. Considering the current disaster of the Maser Trofeo GT car they might want to wait a year and put more development in the car.

FerrariFlip, which issue of R&T on the F1 vs. Enzo vs. S7????? Need to dig that one out. Seem to remember if was this fall.

Maybe "destroy" wouldn't be the right word but I do think the F1 would beat the Enzo in a fair test. Please don't quote me what some magazine hack thinks while driving the car at 7/10's.

Find me a test run at the same time by the same driver who is a world class driver like some of those mentioned (Palmer, Millen, Wallace, Brundle).

As for body roll, I can only tell you that when I saw Martin Brundle flog the living **** out chassis number 006 back in 94 at Silverstone it looked fine to me.

The only two magazine hacks I would personally consider to have enough talent to evaluate an F1 or Enzo would be Tiff Needle (professional racer and F1 driver), Martin Brundle and Horst Von Surma (holds nearly every Ring record in a production car for Auto Motor und Sport). Paul Frere and Phil Hill are getting up there bit in age and I doubt they would want to drive quite that fast.

Please don't mention Jeremy Clarkson. Yeah he's funny but I doubt he can drive any better than I can and that ain't saying a whole lot.

I am fully ready to conceed if someone here can post the date and magazine where a lap test was done by a respected driver.

Don't tell me the Enoz could if it wanted to or that some magazine hack felt the Enzo was a better car. Give me some numbers from a track please.

Regards,

Jon

 

Thanks for the impressions Audiguy, those are the kind of quirks and stories I like to hear about. More on a personal view, rather than a publication view. Especially the little nick-nacks - side window and such.

 

Jon,

The best I remember was something in the area of 1/4 million per engine. I do not have any hard numbers on this and my memory is not as good as it once was. There were so few of them produced. And I believe that Gordon Murray worked with BMW in the design and implementation of this engine to this chasis. BMW would never have built this engine without an outlet for it and Murray/McLaren offered that outlet. It was like the engine was commissioned by McLaren from BMW.

The street version put out 27 more hp that the Lemans car due to restrictions being put on it for racing. It is not very often, if ever, that we see the street version put out more power than the race engine.

 

Ok, I don't know if this has been highlighted here or spoken before, but do check this URL http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=627&page_number=7&preview=

.............

I dunno what more do you want to know, of course the Mac is a great car and WAS the greatest for a long time (still is in many ways), but to me, Ferrari will always be Ferrari despite the cars hability to out perform whatever other car is out there on the road...

I guess everybody's entitled to an opinion...
Mine is just that Ferrari is the greatest there is!!

 

If that's the fastest official time for 0-60 then the F1 still beats it. Autocar tested the F1 at 3.20 flat. The US car was tested a bit slower.

And other than some subjective opinions and a shorter braking distance there is no data to support the claim that it's faster to 100, 150, 200 or that it can get anywhere close to 240 mph.

Lastly look at the weight figures. Do the math. The Enzo weighs 400 pounds more than F1 and has a paltry 25 additional horses.

the ultiamte test of the cars performance as most of you have stated is at the TRACK. No one here has shown any data that an Enzo lapped any quicker than an F1 at the same venue with the same driver.

Until then.......the Enzo is a great paper champion.

Regards,

Jon

 

i have no idea why the F1 is winning this poll. Id take the Enzo over most any other car on the planet the only ones i wouldnt take it over would be another Ferrari.

 

The figures on the McLaren were taken from the 1997 test. He said he would never let them use one of his cars again after they wore out a set of tires and burned up the clutch and sent it back to him that way. The acceleration tests were done at 105 degrees outside and on worn tires and a bad clutch. Give a really good driver a properly prepared car and let him test it at 70 degrees at sea level and see what it will do. By properly prepared. I only mean a good set of tires and a good clutch and in proper running order. No special trick tuning or anything else.

 

If I had to choose then the Enzo as I was always slightly put off the Mclaren by the fact that the car cost £600K and had an engine from a mass production manufacturer (even if it is a fantastic engine).

Incidently I recommend the Martin Brundle Supercar DVD (available in the UK not sure about anywhere else) features a comparison between the Enzo, F1, F40, Zonda, Murcielago, EB110, XJ220 Konigsegg, TVR 440R and the Diablo GT. Not surprisingly the Enzo and F1 come out 1st and 2nd. Brundle reckons the Enzo is better on the track but the F1 is better on the road and better built, although it should be borne in mind that Brundle is an Ex Mclaren driver and David Coultard's Manager so he may be slightly biased.

 

While the McLaren seems like my first choice because of the development philosophy they use, I would have to drive them both to decide. I only really care about pure driving pleasure, and would take the one that drives most like a sports car should. Oddly enough, if you asked me F40 or McLaren F1, I would say 'F40' without hesitation. That car is purely you and the car.

 

This really testing my memory.

Way back in the mid to late 1980's there was an article in either Car and Driver or Road and Track about the acceleration numbers of an F1 turbocharged car. It was even featured on the front cover. I believe, and definitely could be very wrong here, that it was either Bergher or Sennas car. I seem to remember that the number were 0-168 mph in 9.6 seconds when they actually put the car on a drag strip and timed it in the quarter. Does anyone else remember this article??????

 

McLaren for me... classic understated design. Enzo looks like it was designed by Mattell.

 

Yes, it was R&T and it was Berger's Bennetton F1 car. I have that magazine around somewhere. I'll see if I can find it this weekend.

Greg A

 

I think that the argument that the McLaren was a mix of parts from all over the place holds no water. McLaren made basically the entire car, save the engine...but this engine was made by BMW specifically for the F1, its not as if the engine was already there and McLaren just dropped it in.

Also, many of you guys are overlooking the fact that the F1 was designed to be a ususable, daily driver supercar, thus, the suspension had to be designed for comfort as well as performance, the design intent was not for the car to be a garage queen or a track monster, it was a road car, designed for everyday use.

 

Agreed, I would take the F1. With a few adjustments you can turn that F1 into an F1 LM.

 

Should read 100-150 mph. It's in McLaren's book. Read it !

 

Ill skip both, keep my Sv, and add a Murci, Gallardo, F40, Countach,F40, 512M and 996TT.

 

Tough choice.Although there was no doubt in my mind it would be the enzo.I mean really, even Mika Haikinen bought a ferrari.