It did an independantly verified 240.1 mph run, with only the rev-limiter disabled, check the links above for the video, or check at www.racingflix.com The skidpad isn't a great way to determine the real world handling of any car... Even selling at almost $1 mil US, McLaren took a loss on every single F1...
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2422&highlight=factory "We walked thorugh the assembly-line area for all models including the Enzo. Supossedly...I saw Enzo number 202 being completed and 203, 204, and 205 in process. All were Red! My impressions were that the line workers on the V-8, and 12 line were fairly young and very playfull for a Monday morning. (there was a lot of kocking around...laughing..typical monday morning B.S.) I watched one guy spend 7 -8 minutes adjusting the drivers door on a Red/Tan 360." "I gathered..rather solidified my realization that all Ferrari's have many imperfections about them - (invitation for everyone to insert comments here!) this obviously explains many of the things I find imperfect about my car. From iperfect welds, drips in the paint, to imperfect alignemnts....it was all there. Yes, they really are hand made and I appreciate it even more now." http://www.ferrariownersclub.co.uk/happenings/2003/april/enzo.asp The current issue of Autocar magazine (23 April) features as its cover story an acceleration test at Fiorano to determine whether the new Enzo is quicker than the 10-year old McLaren F1. Driven by factory test driver Dario Benuzzi, and apparently on a slight downhill gradient, it didn't quite make it: ____________________0 - 60____0 - 100____0 - 150 McLaren_____________3.2 sec____6.3 sec____12.8 sec Enzo________________3.5 sec____6.6 sec____13.1 sec Ford Mondeo 1.8_____10.4 sec____31.0 sec The article makes interesting reading, no less because it contains the saga of how Autocar allegedly have so far been thwarted in their attempts at borrowing an Enzo for an independent road and performance test. PS. I don't care, just like to instigate . . .
I'd take an Enzo over the F1 for the newer design, great performance and better technology. Who cares about the top speed, its pretty much useless. I mean if the car can hit 200+ mph thats good enough for me. Plus its a Ferrari! Oh yeah, plus i am not a BMW fan!
No contest, McLaren F1 all the way, and I do not even get off on the looks of the car (too plain for me ). It is a race car for the road. The Enzo is a poser car that is 10 seconds a lap slower than the first development of the Maserati MCC (which is what the Enzo should have been), and simply plain ugly! Hopefully the MCC will go on to great things and restore some REAL (non-F1) pride in Italy and Ferrari/Maserati will atlast sell a supercar that CAN win on the track like the F40. This is really a silly thread as like Jon says the Enzo cannot even be considered against the F1 until it proves itself ... and it never will. The MCC is NOT an Enzo, it is based on the Enzo but they will be removing the poser parts and replacing with race ready parts and thus turning it into a real car. Pete
For those who are interester in cheeting in top speed contests... 240 mph with rev limiter disconnected. Hmm... I wonder what top speed Enzo will have with aero aid disconnected? @ 300 km/h Enzo reaches its top speed with an massive 785 kg of downforce. Underbody wing reduces the downforce gradually and it accelerate up to its max speed at 350+ km/h, still with an impressive 525 kg of downforce. Disconnect that wing and allow Enzo to run with a slight lift and it will probably be faster than F1. BUT. The Enzo was built to generate downforce so I would prefere a slalom course test at 300 km/h instead and watch the 0.87 g skidpad- F1 fly into the woods with Enzo still on track. Things has happend the last 10 years. On the other hand, I believe comparing cars only from top speed or 0.60 point of view is stupid so why bother.
Jon, Sorry but I do not know the weight add for fitting the car to US specs. I know his car came with some awful looking pods on the front and no passenger seats to pass US specs. After passing he had the bumper pods removed and the seats were installed. The bumper pods looked like nothing more than some molded foam painted silver to match the car and stuck on the front. Very ugly indeed. Somehow I seems as though maybe one car was tested with a full tank of gas and one fairly empty (some of the weight difference) but the rest of the difference I cannot tell you. I wish I could for comparison sake. I know it means little to some of the people reading this link but having driven an F1 for several days, not the short stints that most magazine writers get them for, I found this car to be totally drivable daily and a real performer when I asked it to. I responded to everything I asked it to do. I would also reach up and slap you if you lose focus and do not pay attention at speed. Like I said in an earlier post, if you will anticipate what the next corner is and lead the car a little, being fully braked, in the proper gear and in the proper place at the corner and then roll the throttle up thru the apex and not apply full throttle until pointed toward proper line the car will respond beautifully. If you jab the gas to the floor before straightening your corner exit, the rear end will definitely try to pass you. But, like I said also, we learn this in "performance driving 101". I have to say that I am one of the most fortunate people in the world to have a friend who would let me have this car for three days and just caution me "James, please do not make me cry. The car is self-insured". I do not think there is more than a handful of people in the US who have gotten to drive this car and maybe none except the owners who have gotten to put the miles on one that I did. I have gotten to drive a lot of cars in my time on this planet and I appreciate all of the different cars for their individuality. Some just impress more than others no matter how wonderful they are individually. I love the Enzo also, it is a great supercar and a joy to be in. It is just that the F1 excited me more behind the wheel. But perhaps, I did not have enough seat time in the Enzo to make a fair comparison. Three days in an F1 is hard to beat. It takes seat time in any car to get to know its personality and characteristics. You cannot do it in an hour of two behind the wheel. I believe that Jon and anyone else who owns a true high performance race ready car will agree with this. Jon, correct me here if I am wrong but I assume that after you got your 355 Challenge that it took several trips to the track to get used to its little quirks and idiosycrisies. You did not learn it after 5 laps. How much did you lap times improve after you had 10-20 hours behind the wheel? Rob, how about you? How much better are your lap times now that you are getting very familiar with your 355 Challenge? Improved by a good margin I would assume.
Ha ha, I meant "It would respond" and "it would reach up and slap you" in the above link. "I would reach up and slap you"? I don't think so!!!!!!!!!!!!!:>)
Again more speculation ! How do you even know the Enzo could be driven at that speed without the aero aid. What about front end lift at that speed. I am not basing my opinion on top speed. Look at the numbers, the F1 weighs anywhere from 400-700 pounds less. The Enzo is an overbloated pig compared to the F1. And then let's look at them racing. Hmmm..........Ferrari wouldn't let the F50 GT1 race, the F40's were blazingly fast for a few dozen laps before they either ate the gearbox or blew up and there are no plans to race the Enzo. There is a reason the F40 didn't do well in racing, and the F50 GT1 never raced, AND the Enzo will never race. They could never match the F1. As far as the rev limiter being removed, so what ! Try removing the rev limiter on an Enzo and see what happens. Even if I conceed they cheated by doing this (and I don't) it still whips the Enzo by 13 miles per hour and on the track it could never match the F1 with 700 extra pounds. Reprograming an ECU isn't exactly the same as taking off body parts, exhaust systems, catalytic converters and such. Those of you discounting the weight issue have obviously never driven at the track or raced. Case in point, at my local track which is 2.4 miles, my 1995 F355 Challenge car with 400 hp laps in 1:18.82 (less than a second off the track record for that car). My Spec Racer Ford weighs nearly 1300 pounds less (1700 w/o driver) BUT HAS ONLY 100 horsepower. Best a lap time is 1:24 flat. Missing over 300 hp and it's a little over 5 seconds slower. Now imagine two supercars, one carrying a 700 pound handicap. Just look at the difference 400 pounds makes at Fiorano between a 360 C and a 360 M. Eight seconds per lap. If we look at the 360 CS it's 6 seconds per lap slower than a 360 C. Tires might explain 2 seconds of differnece. No contest! And lastly some of you are discounting the leaps made in tire technology for street tires. Makes a huge difference. Jon
Improved by a huge margin. Rob and a few other's know my story of how I improved by 4 seconds per lap in the Challenge car my first season racing underpowered Spec Racers. I owned the car 355 C for 3 years and my lap times improved by nearly 8 seconds per lap. My other quirk is that most (not all) magazine testers are marginal at best in the skill department. Two years ago I was at a track event at Road America and there were two R&T guys there (you would know the names) testing a ZO6 and a standard C5. The cars were on loan from GM. They were so slow it was hilarious. I was there in my M5 and they couldn't loose me. However, that being said a professional racer can get into most anything and in 10 laps or more tell you everything that is wrong with the handling and get up to speed. Perfect example I saw was at the Glen two years ago. A customer had just bought a 333 SP and hired a professional racer to go along to make sure the car was set up right. The racer got to within less than one second of Mauro Baldi's track record in a 333 SP. The diffence between amateurs and pro's is many times the period of time it takes to get up to speed in a car and the fact that pros nail every lap consistenly. I think in the end we will need to get someone like Andy Wallace to test an Enzo and an F1 at the same venue before any of you can make all these speculative statements. Jon
Agreed. I can think of no magazine writer right now who can give a car a real representative test of what it can really do. Jon, even you said that it might take a professional driver 10 laps to get the feeling of a different car. And the magazine guys ususally only get 3-5 laps maximum. This will not allow them the time necessary to get to know the car. And this is a professional driver, not someone who doesn't do it all the time. I am certainly not a professional car racer (although I did race professional MX for Kawasaki years ago) and I got to spend three days in the car. It took that long to get the feel of how the suspension would react to different demands, how the torque of the engine acted in different gears and just generally how the car reacted overall to what I asked of it. Oh, if only I were a licensed race driver and had the car for three days at the track. How much fun could that be?????????
Jon, if you read my post again I think you know what I mean. There is a reason why Enzo does not have the top speed as F1 and the reason for that is downforce. That gives grip, which gives low lap times. That 525 kg of downforce generate about 140-150 kg of drag. FYI about weight. Ferrari estimates that crach test requirements intruduced after the project start of Enzo cost about 140 kg. 140 kg that F1 does not have to carry around since it was built before these new regulations. Ciao Peter
FLATOUTRACING, the street Porsche GT1 performance is as follows: 600h.p. 0-60mph = 3.4 sec. 0-100mph = 6.2 sec. 1/4 mile is 10.9 @ 139.5 mph. bracking from 60 is 98 feet bracking from 80 is 154 feet skidpad is 1.07g top speed is 174 mph The F1 is : 627hp 0-60 = 3.4 0-100 = 7.7 1/4 mile is 11.6 @ 125mph bracking from 60 is 127 feet bracking from 80 is 215 feet skidpad 0.86 g (laughing even more). Top speed is a great 231 mph, but is it practical in a car that gets dangerous after 200 mph because of "bad" aerodynamics so the car can reach a very high top speed? This info is out of Road @ Track, by the way some Euro mags have a thing for bashing Ferrari street cars, if you read a lot of them you will know it. The Porsche is far superior in everything but top speed, the top speed is completely useless in the u.s.a. and even in Europe with the heavy traffic, the F1 its very unstable when it passes 200 mph, it is nervous at that speed, the designer left out good downforce to be able to get that top speed but in the end it does more harm than good, even the racing version was a scary ride after 200mph. In many tracks the top speed wont help the Maclaren, not even F1 cars get close to 240 mph in any circuit. The Porsche will leave it in the dust in a track. The enzo was a car that could do 250 mph but the politics at Ferrari thought that it was stupid or even pointless to make a car that fast, Ferrari doesn't need to prove itself to anyone and they wanted a well balanced car without insulting the inteligence of the people that buys this supercars. Its the other people that need to prove something like an teenager and stand out with some sort of pointless scream. The road test of road and track shows how the Enzo beats the Maclaren in everything , the mag. even calls it the best performance car ever, the maclaren is a was. You should find it and read it so you can keep yourself well informed. flatassraccing... And Cheers while farting a slow quite but killer one, guy just don't hurt yourself!
Sorry but it'd have to be the F1 because the Enzo is a cobbled together heap of junk. I have lost count of the number of articles that talk about it breaking down or bits falling off it or crap build quality. For the same money gimmie a Lusso and a 360CS and cash or a 1/5th share in a 512.
Gee this is turning in to a debate I have with my extended family, ie. everybody gets the wrong end of the stick and gets upset about it, etc. Lets keep it simple. Many of us rely on results not hearsay. Usually these people like myself have been involved in motorsport and thus find the magazine articles to be the other side of pathetic, with occasional exceptions (Mark Hughs and John Surtees, etc.). Lets look at the results/score between the 2 cars: McLaren F1, results: 1st, 3rd & 4th 95 Le Mans. 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th & 9th 96 Le Mans. 2nd & 3rd 97 Le Mans. Enzo, results: 0 wins and 0 starts!. Thus personally I do not care what the Enzo supposedly can do, until it actually does it on a race track it is all BS. The McLaren is a doer, the Enzo is like your mate in the pub continually bragging but never backing up ... shame on Ferrari for moving in this direction . Pete
Son, you've been reading too many car magazines. You're the one that is misinformed. The GT1 numbers you just quoted me are from the 1998 GT1 996 Strassenversion OF WICH A GRAND TOTAL OF 1 CAR WAS BUILT. I would hardly call that a production supercar. Why don't you compare the more common street version since the 1998 GT1 is sitting at Weisach in a Museum and I doubt the boys in Stuttgart will let you take it for a spin even if you save all your lunch money. The 97 GT1 Strassenversion had 544 hp did 0-60 in 3.7 and 0-100 in 6.9. You're confusing a one-off car in a museum with the actual street cars that were sold to the public which were all street cars. The 98 GT1 was sold to a customer to conform with the new regulations in 1998 at LeMans which did not specify how many cars had to be built only that A car be built, street registered and sold. They sold it to someone and bought it back after the race. See below the pictures so you don't get confused. The first one is the 98 GT1 (again only 1 built) the other is the one you see in car magazines and it's not as fast as the F1. And lastly, you make all these claims about the F1 being unstable at 200. Have you been in one at 200 or are you just quoting a bunch of sissy magazine reporters who would wet their pants on the Mulsane straight in anything other than a rental car. Maybe the fact that most magazine reporters aren't really world class drivers or racers and the fact that they are driving a $1 million car that their $50,000 per year salaries can't pay for makes them nervous NOT THE CAR. Andy Wallace, Martin Brundle, John Watson and many other F1 and LeMans winning drivers didn't seem to mind the car at well over 200 mph. Have you even been to 200 mph in car, 150 even. I've been 203 mph in a car and I can tell you that if you don't do this on a regular basis you would be a bit nervous too. I hit 150, 160 and above in my Challenge car and it doesn't seem that fast when you do it every other weekend but 200+ felt damn fast to me. How bout' you?? Did you read the rest of the thread ???? Audiguy knows the person who owned the car tested in R&T and stated the clutch was bad as were the tires. Don't quote me the worst figures you can find. Autocar's figures were listed as 0-60 in 3.2 and 0-100 in 6.3. Those are the best stats that are inedependently verfied and your 97 GT1 can't beat those figures. Your claim of 250 for the Enzo. Who at the factory did you talk with? Anyone??? Show me some facts not YOUR OPINION !! Give me the source. Show me the road test where the numbers show the Enzo beats the F1. I don't care about some magazine writers opinion that the Enzo is easier to drive by the average ordinary Joe. If that is what your basing your claim on fine then the Enzo is a better car. BUT THAT DOESN'T make it faster !! Good case in point. A friend of mine owns a Ferrari 333 SP and a Porsche 962 Turbo. He will be the first to tell you that the 333 SP is a better car in his opinion because it's easier to drive but the 962 will blow it into the weeds. The fastest 333 SP's at LeMans never got within 3 seconds of the fastest 962's there. If you point is that the car might be easier to drive for you and that makes it a better car...great you win your argument. I know how to drive a car at high speed and don't want something you can drive!!!!! Jon Pic of nice Museum car Image Unavailable, Please Login
DES, Is that you????? I must have missed the Off Topic Forum (haven't been there lately). Explain the name change NNO. Regards, Jon
LMAO...! Yeah, it's me, buddy... i had to change the user name since my legal name change finally went through and is official... Check my profile for my new, full, legal name...
Hmm....reading your profile it says you own an authentic Scuderia Sebring GT 2+2 LWB Carbiolet Speciale. Where's Wayne A. to confirm you actually own one of these rare cars. Please provide VIN # so we can be sure you're not pulling a Matt L. on us (ha, ha, ha....) I like the new name. Cheers, Jon
By the way, since you are so well informed (unlike me) I just wanted to point out that you could've quoted some figures from the car below and won the debate against the F1. This Posche is faster and has also won LeMans overall and more than 1 was built.............. .............but being better informed you ALREADY KNEW THAT !!!! Jon Image Unavailable, Please Login
www.Classicdriver.de has got three of the "they only made 1" Porsche GT1s for sale. Could all be the same but one is in NZ and one is in Germany. Colours include white and silver. Des, I know you are attached to the Enzo but I had a look at some higher mileage 550's in Germany (3 with between 70 and 90,000 miles on them) and they had all run like clockwork since new over the past 5 years. My point is the Enzo should be the same, shouldn't it?
