Enzo "ring" times

I'm not sure if an Enzo has ever been officially timed at the Ring. Now that all of them are sold I think it's unlikely that we will ever see one recorded. The problem with the Ring is that the margin for error is very fine, so not many owners have the balls to drive or let someone drive their car round there on the limit. Walter Rhorl crashed something like around 3 Carrera GTs at the Ring when it was in development.
I reckon it'd be very fast though

 

the Enzo was going to last summer; with a specially prepped suspension package. unfortunately, the bowed out as they had other priorities...

when Porsche and Ferrari swapped cars while developing (near the end) it seems the enzo was unable to take the carousel; and lost 2 seconds per lap because of that... but no official time was measured.

 

I heard in the swap the Enzo was competitive over a lap or two in the dry, but even in semi-wet conditions the CGT was noticably faster.

 

All speculation...

I'd still take the Enzo in a heartbeat.

 

with the production versions that is true; at the time CGT was still in tire development; and suspension development to a lesser degree.

the Enzo is quite a bit faster in a straight line... the extra hp really makes a difference, as well as the more efficiant aero work for cirtain turns.... and out of dottinger hoe.... but ultimately, Porsche felt the Enzo was to harshly sprung for NS for a good lap time... from what i hear

the reason Porsche used the Michelen Pilot sport's was because of thier duality... great dry performance, and superb wet performance.

 

...60 HP is not the reason the CGT is 9 seconds slower to 300!!! Im not sure why, but something is strange with the CGT...

 

The Enzo 'reprofiles' its aero at 220km/h, allowing for quicker acceleration and higher top speed.

I know the rear wing of the CGT moves, but I don't know much about it.

 

I reckon the Enzo and other Ferraris that rely on underbody aero for a significant amount of their downforce would be downright scary at the ring.
Sudden changes in ride height or angle of attack cause rapid and dramatic reductions in downforce. The ring has lots of crests and rough sections of track- nasty.

 

Agreed.

I wonder how stable the Enzo is in 'high-speed' mode. The front wing has folded down, as has the rear wing. Apart from downforce created naturally by the body (don't know how much this is), alot must be created by the diffuser. Looking at a diagram of the design, the front is aided by the vents in the bonnet and the huge fans (like your F50), but it seems the rear would be lacking without the wing.

Bottom out for a moment or get light over a crest and wham, you've lost rear traction.

I wonder if this had anything to do with the 250kmph+ Enzo accidents that occured in the past few months.

I know for certain the one on the PCH lost control after passing over a large crest, althought whether the crest was to blame I have no idea.

 

that, and the CGT has a very dirty aero profile because of the sudden cut behind the cockpit... if it had a "propper" graduation to the rear, it would be much closer in terms of top end accellearation.

 

I think it would be dangerous with any car going over a crest at 250kph

Remember also that the Carrera GT was developed at the Ring, so its setup and structure is probably very well matched. The Enzo (and any other modern Ferrari) is developed at Fiorano, which appears to be very smooth. In many of the road tests of the Enzo the journos were worried about scuffing the nose as the overhang is so long (think F1 car), so really it is only suited to tracks that are nice and flat.
360C that reminds me of the CLR flipping at Le Mans, similar principles?

 

The LeMans flips were caused by an aero design flaw that resulted in the cars suddenly developing lift.

We're just talking about a loss of downforce if the underbody airflow gets disturbed, resulting in a loss of traction and possible loss of control.

 

You certainly seem to have (thankfully!) a lot of knowledge on this! any idea why this happened during CGT development? hard to imagine its just an oversite, or that it wasnt at least a tradeoff for something?

 

In regards to the posts about the Enzo at high speed, it really has no stability issues. In the several tests where they have taken the Enzo near it's top speed and certainly over 300kph, the only comments were actually how rock solid it was at such insane speeds.

 

I don't mean in a straight line on a smooth road, but cornering at high speed over undulations, crests, etc, which can upset the airflow through the diffuser.

 

a trade off to what looked good (styling) vs. engineering.

http://www.howardforums.com/archive/topic/622824-1.html
Gambella have plans (needing a willing doner car, and deposit from an owner) to make a 250 mph CGT... and it would need the revised aero work at those speeds.

at 200 mph, the CGT has about 800 lbs of d/f, wher the enzo has (in long tail low d/f mode) closer to 1100. the drag is much higher on the CGT because of its dirty aero design... this is why the less powerful Ford GT can continue on to 212 (rev limited) mph... it's profile is that much cleaner.

i'll see if i can make a diagram of what is happening later

 

Yeah, I suppose an oval doesn't really count as a corner.

 

well, actually what has been found with closed wheel ground effect is that a stiffer suspension will keep a car glued to the road with a tighter, and more stiffly sprung suspension.

what caused the various GT1 cars to get airborn at lemans, and the Enzo in socal etc. was a slight change in the angle of attack reletive to the direction of air travel. a crest will do this.
what happens there is the volume of air going under the car becomes greater then that going over the car... and generates lift. albiet, this lift is creating vast amounds of parisitic drag; unlike traditional (air moves faster over one surface then the surface paralell to it) meathod.

some people thought that the design of the upper portion of those cars caused them to 'fly' but i think that only aided it once the nose was already lifted significantly... possibly more a failure in suspension dynamics then aerodyamics.

ground effect is achived by limiting the volume of air going under neath the car; thus accellerating it; and usually also takes in about 50% of the air from either side of the car; unlike open wheel racings' side skirts... the phisics are just different.

 

I guess Porsche just doesnt know aeros as well if its less aerodynamic, makes less downforce, and is slower to get there! tsk tsk you would think that massive wing would make it the downforce king!

 

There is always fellow Dane Jan Magnussen driving 7 min. 42,9 sec in a Ferrari eating Corvette C6 Z06

And that's a record for batch production (??) sportscars.
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you got it all wrong; porsche know more about ground effect, and aerodynamics on closed wheel cars then ANYBODY. they pioneered it; and others mearly copied; and it took over a decade for anybody to even come close.

why didn't they make it more efficient? because they felt that style was still important, and wanted to make a car that had more presence; and didn't fit in a shaddow of the Macca in any way whatsoever. Porsche got right what Ferrari got wrong (opinion) with the enzo... nobody has critisized PAG for its design of the CGT... it isn't a race car; even if it started life as one.... it is simply the ultimate road car for its time.

the wing on the back stabilizes the air flow that becomes turbulant behind the cockpit; and actually increases d/f by allowing the underside effects to pull the car down; not so much as a wing itself... it would be almost useless.

maximum d/f was not the goal, as too much d/f creates heavy steering, and a tendency to understeer (rear end grip is usually greater then front end). PAG created the ultimate drivers car that is balanced, and poised to an incredible degree. besides... who is going to do eau Rouge flat out in a CGT, or Enzo anyway

~~~~
about Jan Magnuson's 7:42.9... that is .1 second faster the WR did in a 911 GT3 RS; arguably the winning 10ths were gained exactly where the photo was taken at Flugplatz
". I´m going 240-250 km/h at full throttle in 4th gear and the car is actually jumping twice" :shock: !!! all with GYSC run-craps... not even semi-slicks like the other fast ring boys

 

I've heard alot about the Carrera GT being quite unforgiving. Maybe it's driver inexperience, maybe not.

Also, Eau Rouge flat out? I don't think even FIA GT cars can do it flat out. Maybe LeMans cars or SPs like F333SP? F1 cars could the past 4 or so years, not sure about other open-wheel catagories (A1GP, GP2, F3000, F3, FRenault, FBMW).

 

thanks Nfifth, now i can want one again knowing it isnt necessarily second best, whoohoo, its a good day again lol.