News

Enzo's F1 gearbox)

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by F1racer, Dec 10, 2003.

  1. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

    Oct 5, 2003
    4,749
    Laval
    Full Name:
    Jean
    I'v heard some people complaining about the Enzo F1 gearbox.

    Martin Brundle has a Ferrari Enzo and he said
    ''Don't think you're experiencing what Schumacher does paddle shifting because you're not, the Enzo shift is a lot slower than an F1 car.''

    Even a French journalist said that it shifts a bit slow. He said went you shift it doesn't react fast enough.

    Are they complaining for nothing? I'v never driven an Enzo and I'm sure I will never get a ride in one (but you never know) so I don't know what it feels that F1 gearbox.
    Is the 360 CS F1 gearbox better?
     
  2. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    No way. Do you really think Ferrari would put a faster/better F1 system in the CS than the Enzo? I think the point Brundle is making is that even in the best road cars with F1-type shifting, the gear changes are going to be slower than Formula One. Let's face it, in competition all that matters are few tenths you can control, and as long as the clutch and driveline hold up for the required amount of time, speed will rule. On the road there a few more compromises.

    Gary
     
  3. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

    Oct 5, 2003
    4,749
    Laval
    Full Name:
    Jean
    Yeah I guess so.
    Brundle drove many F1 cars before and its okay for him to say that but how come that journalist is complaining?
    Anyway I was just wondering.
    No big deal
     
  4. rjklein

    rjklein Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
    124
    Two things come to mind. One that is a perfect way to brag that you have driven a F-1 car. Second is the clutch, drivability vs performance vs durability.
     
  5. teflon

    teflon Formula Junior

    May 16, 2003
    330
    Full Name:
    Greg A
    The quoted time for the F1 system as fitted to the 360 is 150ms. That is about 8 times slower than what the F1 cars are supposed to be able to do.

    For comparison purposes, BMW claims that the fastest shift speed on their SMG II is 80ms.

    I do not know what the reported shift speeds are for the 360CS and Enzo, but I doubt it is much faster than the 150ms of the stock 360. I have not driven any of the Ferrari F1 systems, but looking at the times it appears that the F1 is slow.

    Oh yeah, IMHO anyone who gets into a Road car and expects it to shift anything like a Formula 1 car is out of their mind.

    Greg A
     
  6. CAS

    CAS F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 6, 2003
    2,614
    San Diego, CA
    Full Name:
    Clint
    I totally agree - did you watch that video from Fiorano that was shot from a digicam? It showed a blue 360 Challenge, but the shifts were unbelievable.. It came off of the corner, WAAAAAA-Click-WAAAAA.

    I think a revision to the F1 system is in development.
     
  7. Hubert888

    Hubert888 F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    May 14, 2003
    5,377
    Manhattan & LA
    Full Name:
    Hubert
    Remember that the F1 shifting time is significantly reduced when you shift at 7500 RPM than compared to at 2500 RPM. Maybe the Enzo dude who was complaining about the F1 gearbox in his Enzo was complaining about how slow it shifts in the lower RPM's speeds.
     
  8. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2003
    9,153
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Scott
    I agree. I just saw an in-car video of an Enzo doing a lap at a track. The shifts seemed very slow because he was shifting at relatively low rpm. I don't know why you'd post a video of yourself driving an Enzo like my grandmother would have, but this guy did.
     
  9. 720

    720 F1 Rookie

    Jul 14, 2003
    2,623
    So. Cal and No. Utah
    Full Name:
    Rick
    you should drive a 360 F1 before you call the shifts "slow". i have put 20,000 miles on 2002 360 F1s and the F1 is excellent...especially in "sport" mode when you are driving very aggressively. the F1 shifts faster the more aggressively you are driving the car. it's a blast and no way could a human shift as fast with a manul gearbox. and the stradale is supposed to be faster, smoother and more aggressive than the modena F1 :)
     
  10. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,849
    I had a very interesting conversation with a friend, who shall remain unnamed. He is well known by many in our area, and prefers to take a "humble", understated approach. This has always been his style (read lots of class).

    This gentleman has recently purchased Schumacher’s 1998 F1 car. This was not the car that he won the championship with, but the second car, with which Schumacher won Spa-Franchorchamps. This unnamed gentleman races vintage F1 (in the big league) and is quite successful. He raced Can AM in the 1970's and 80s for Porsche, amongst others.

    I asked him about the shift times of the F1 versus the Enzo. Here is his reply. It may be lengthy for some.

    First, in order to start his 1998 F1 car, three engineers from Ferrari Factory must be present. They require three computers: one for suspension, one for transmission/transaxle, and one for engine. Before starting the engine, the following procedure must take place. First, the engine is infused with oil and water at operating temperature. These are circulated through the engine until the block achieves operating temperature. Second, the hydraulic system, including brakes and clutch, are brought to 200 BAR pressure. Third, the transmission and transaxle are computer-inspected and primed. This process takes three hours! The engine idles at 3800 RPM. There is a clutch only for standing still. Once moving, there is no clutch. Once all three engineers give a thumbs up, the driver then turns on the ignition to inspect the display on the steering wheel. If all of the (I believe he said 9 lights) are green, then, and only then can he ignite the engine.

    The point germane to this conversation is the 200 BAR for hydraulic pressure. I suspect this has something to due with shifting speed.

    Finally, I quote from my friends e-mail, replying to my inquiry concerning shifting speed and permission to share the information:

    "GO AHEAD. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE ENZO HAS FOR A SHIFT SYSTEM. HOWEVER, I HAVE DRIVEN BOTH THE 575 MARANELLO AND THE F1 CAR AND THERE IS NO COMPARISON IN THE SHIFT TIMES. THE F1 CAR IS AT LEAST 1/2 THE TIME. I'LL CHECK WITH MY GUYS AT FERRARI AND LET YOU KNOW." unnamed

    Jim S.
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Jim
    Is all of this a good thing? I remember sitting behind Eddie Irvine in the new F1 Jag as 14 people were unable to restart his car for 25 minutes. After he finally set off it was my turn. I threw on the master, ign, and pressed the starter. I waited for the lights to turn to green and started up Lord March's driveway in my MK-IV. Eddie was 15 seconds faster up the course but if you counted the 25 minutes he took to get going I beat him by a wide margin...
    James
     
  12. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
    2,995
    Kansas
    Full Name:
    Sean F
    Isn't that the car Schumacher ran into Coultard with?
     
  13. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,849
    James - "good" is in the eyes of the beholder. My friend's explanation, from what he was told by Ferrari, is that the tolerances are so small that operating temperature must be achieved before subjecting piston travel to cylinder-piston clearances. I interject that the hydraulic pressure likely saves weight, in that smaller hydraulic piston surfaces and lines can achieve greater force. Suspension dynamics and adjustments are all computer made.

    I asked him what happens if the car stalls in the pits during a race. His response was that since the engine was at operating temperature, and the race was at stake, that the engine was externally cranked, computers be damned. It is in the testing and initial startup that the care is taken

    Another observation was that when he went out to test the car on Ferrari's track, it was first taken out by a factory driver. Upon his return he stated that everything was okay. When my friend got in it, he got on it as was to be expected, and felt that the brakes were inadequate. He re-entered the pits to notify the engineering team that the brakes were not working correctly (somewhat concerned, perhaps embarrassed that he might be wrong - after all, the factory driver said it was perfect). As he entered the pits, the engineers notified him that the telemetry revealed that his front brakes were not working! The engineers (through telemetry) probably knew the status of his urinary bladder.

    Sean F. - No, I do not believe that this car has been in a shunt. I understood this to be Schumacher's 2nd car, used when bad things happened to the first car. Second is also a relative term, as this car did win at Spa.

    This gentleman will be racing across Europe this summer, but will be back for the Vintage race at Pepple (Laguna Seca I assume). You can see it there.

    Jim S.
     
  14. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2003
    9,153
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Scott
    James,
    This is a good story, and one that points out the relative extremes we've come to with technological advances. A three hour startup time to drive a 1998 F1 car (ther Ferrari) doesn't sound appealing (nor is it inexpensive). But look at the alternatives made available by modern technologies, i.e; the Radical race car. A Hyabusa engine in a very light chassis that starts with the push of a button, will run hour upon hour without a rebuild and will blow away any of the grand prix cars from my childhood.
    Modern times have produced some amazingly complex systems, but also some tecnologically advanced systems that are very reliable, easy to use, and relatively inexpensive.
    I still like the Ford GT40 as much as anything though, old or new.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Teak/James
    For sure horses for courses. That said I do feel that there was a certin je ne c'est quoi about watching the P4's and the Big Fords drive from the garages, thru the streets, onto the grid. Driving a modern F1 car isn't something that interests me but driving a 250GTO through the mountain passes above Monte Carlo is something I plan to do again...
     
  16. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    i hope brundel's comment was taken out of context as I find it hard to believe that an actual ex-f1 racer would hold a notion as naive that stated above; of course a road isn't going shift like an f1 car, nor will it handle like one, nor will it sound like one... duh!

    as fas as the acclaimed "french journalist," well... whatever.

    Mr. Selevan brought up a key point -- pneaumatic pressure. 200BAR is silly, and anyone fathoming a street system to hold that sort of pressure probably has trouble finding their oil cap.
     
  17. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Apr 21, 2003
    10,921
    Does this imply that you already have driven a 250GTO through the mountain passes above Monte Carlo? Did I miss one of your wonderfull stories? You had better write a book of all this stuff, I will be second in line (behind DES) to buy it. :)
     
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Yup.
     
  19. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 8, 2002
    3,390
    Bay Area Calif.
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I have ridden in an Enzo, as I posted some time ago. The owner has a 360 also and one of the first things he noticed about the Enzo was how much better the F1 system was. I thought it was seamless, and quite fast, much faster than the 360, or 355.
    Of course its not as fast or positive as the F1 cars, but then its not rebuilt after every drive either.
     

Share This Page