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Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors.

Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by RWatters, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. RWatters

    RWatters Formula Junior

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  2. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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    #2 F1tommy, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
    Landing at Boeing field just before delivery on November 12th 2018. No matter what this second crash is not good for the MAX program unless it was caused by anything other than the airplane. Sounds like the aircraft behaved differently that on the Lion Air crash.


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  3. TheMayor

    TheMayor Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Seems impossible two new planes could crash so closely together.
     
  4. F1tommy

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    Hear is the flights statistics. It looks like it was pretty normal but he did gain 4000 feet pretty fast just before problems started. Who knows, this could be terrorism for all we know at this point.

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  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I hope Boeing did not do an Airbus with too much computer "help" on the Max.
     
  6. TheMayor

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  7. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Ok, no one asked but I'm going to give you my opinion anyway. The 737 was designed in the 60s as a short range aircraft. Around the time the airlines were deregulated SWA expanded a lot. They ordered a crap load of 737s. They pretty much demanded that the 737 and all of its variants would be on one type rating. Because Boeing wanted to sell as many airplanes as possible they went with SWA requirement for same type rating, also this saved Boeing a lot of money since they didn't have to design or build a new airplane. As the 737 mission expanded to cover longer flights with more passengers Boeing started doing mods on the 737 to meet the new requirements but there is a major flaw with the 737, the landing gear are too short. Boeing has done a bunch of design tweeks to try to get the airplane farther off of the ground so they can put bigger engines on it and up to the max version they were able to do this. For the max, to fit the engine they had to move the engine further foward on the wing to mount it higher on the wing to get ground clearance (they even extended the nose gear to try to get more ground clearance). The resulting placement of the engines make the nose pitch up as power is applied, now all airplanes with engines mounted below the wings do this but the pitch up on the max is worse that other airplanes. In fact it is so bad that Boeing threw another bandaid on the max. This is the system that automatically trims the aircraft nose down under certain flight conditions to help counter the large pitch up problem. Realistically as the mission requirements for the 737 expanded Boeing should have designed a new airplane to meet these requirements but for various reasons this has not happened and therefore we have the max.
     
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  8. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    This flight is also bringing up questions with the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System.

    What you discuss is illustrated here pretty well: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing-737-max-maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/
     
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  9. jcurry

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    Pitch up with engine mounted higher is counter intuitive. Is it actually due to higher thrust, or does the engine mounting also have a slight angle of thrust?
     
  10. JLF

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    The 800s and 700s have that as well, it’s not just the max. Flying it there is no noticeable pitch up characteristics that differ from the 7 and 8s.
     
  11. Ak Jim

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    Interesting, so there is no difference in the flight control/trim system when you go to one of the max aircraft? If so I guess I must have misinterpreted the article I read about it.
     
  12. teak360

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    Similar flight profile to the Lion Air crash. This plane barely got off the ground too. This Boeing has been out for about 2 years and already 2 down in the same apparent fashion. Unless it is immediately shown to be sabotage, or some other know factor it seems there might be a call to ground all 370 or so planes. Just a guess but it was probably the same issue as the Lion Air crash. Like Air France drifting down into the ocean, more capable pilots may have not crashed.
    I think there will be a call to ground.
     
  13. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    Well because of this accident Boeing is delaying the launch of the 777x...
     
  14. TheMayor

    TheMayor Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 TheMayor, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  15. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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  16. TheMayor

    TheMayor Six Time F1 World Champ
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  17. Bob Parks

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    I think that you are correct on both elements here. Increased thrust installed above or below the line of drag can have great effect. Increased angle of thrust to counter drag without modulation can cause pitch up. This requires a nose down input. If this input isn't properly modulated and overcomes the pitch up... Several experimental designs between the wars crashed because the engines were mounted on the upper wings of large biplanes and when power was applied they nosed over into the ground killing the flight crew. The 737 Max isn't that crude but the misalignment of thrust with drag might be the problem that isn't controlled. It's late and getting tired so I hope that this made sense.
     
  18. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    You might be correct. My son said, "Turn everything off and fly the airplane".
     
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  19. Ferrari 308 GTB

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    I believe Southwest fitted an extra AOA indicator for Pilots to use in case things not going to plan.The MCAS is not even in the FCOM .

    Too early to tell of course ,but the Chinese taking action already speaks volumes.
     
  20. Kuba

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    Its the Governments decision, so I wouldnt be surprised if that was just a part of the economical "war" with the USA...
     
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  21. furmano

    furmano F1 World Champ
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    Doesn't that look just like what happened to the Lion Air aircraft?

    -F
     
  22. INRange

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  23. nerofer

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    375+ likes this.
  24. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The Chinese have already refused to give regional carriers licenses in China if they were going to use foreign aircraft. A government push to make sure they buy Chinese aircraft, even if they are inferior to Western equipment.
     
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  25. energy88

    energy88 F1 Veteran
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