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Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors.

Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by RWatters, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    F
    Find that article because it covers the dynamics of ALL the control surfaces....the software is handling the interface, and then when you kill that with the thumb wheels, you had better be heads up flying because at take off thrust the flaps and the tail can end up fighting each other?

    Or at least have to be controlled sympathetically.
    They made it sound like the low experience of the last crash just "forgot" they w=ere at full take off throttle as they freaked out over fighting the nose dive....
     
  2. furmano

    furmano F1 World Champ
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    Apparently at some point along the way, engineers at Boeing changed the dynamics of MCAS to be more aggressive (number of inputs increased, rate of each input increased) without going through the correct approvals and review. If so, it seems like that's where the process went wrong.

    -F
     
  3. Steelton Keith

    Steelton Keith F1 Rookie
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    I thought it was fascinating reading and also enjoyed the author's perspective on Airbus vs. Boeing view of "airmanship".
     
    showme1946 likes this.
  4. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

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    Mark Oliver
    So the special counsel report finds the FAA misled Congress regarding the qualifications of its inspectors. You couldn’t make this stuff up.
    How can they hope to have any credibility when they appear to have broken the prime commandment incumbent on all participants in any accident investigation, which is to be open and honest in establishing the root cause.
    Imagine how well that will go down with Patrick Ky and EASA. Don’t expect to see any 737 max flying in European airspace any time soon.

    Best to all.
    M
     
  5. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    At some point Boeing moved its headquarters to Chicago and became run by MBAs. Other than Muilenberg there isn't an engineer on the board.
     
  6. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    I remember when Boeing announced that they were looking to move to somewhere (eventually leading to Chicago). I wasn't the only one that thought Boeing wasn't happy that the size of their local political clout had been greatly diminished by Microsoft.
     
  7. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Frank Shrontz, not an engineer, did a pretty good job of running the company through the certification of the 777. Phil Condit, his successor and an engineer, not so much.
     
  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Not saying the CEO needs to be an engineer.
    But where there other engineers in top management/board.
     
  9. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    Shrontz and Condit were both President as well, a position that has much more sway over the general operation of the company than the Board. However, in this (MCAS) instance the critical decision making was/is made at more than one level below President, and no one above that would ever have any knowledge of the decisions, nor would they be expected to. The subordination of certification tasks to the OEM by the FAA is the real culprit IMHO, and akin to the fox guarding the chickens. Also many engineers really have no knowledge of certification requirements nor understand how their particular subject matter may impact others.
     
  10. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    An engineering driven company became a wall MBA driven company. Took 10 years or more for the cost cutting rot to set in, but we see the results.
    Like Dieselgate no one gave the order but it happened.
     
  11. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Condit was an absolute disaster. McNerny wasn't too great either. My opinion. Bill Allen was a lawyer and he saved the Boeing Company during some bad times. The company could use someone like Stamper or Mulally right now.
     
  12. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    Being French I would be completly out of my element commenting on an US legal procedure, considering the difference in our respective Laws, but I found the first phrase of the Southwest's Union argument strongly echoing what has been written here:

    Boeing “abandoned sound design and engineering practices, withheld safety critical information from regulators and deliberately misled its customers, pilots and the public about the true scope of design changes to the 737 MAX.”


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-southwest-lawsuit/southwest-pilots-sue-boeing-for-misleading-them-on-737-max-idUSKBN1WM290

    Rgds
     
  13. ersatzS2

    ersatzS2 Formula Junior
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    I find that article un-readable. There is a vast amount of analysis (eg this thread) on the 737 Max debacle and there has been some really good journalism, but this guy is just using the incident as a platform for a corporate-greed tirade. The historic trajectory of aviation has been an unrelenting trend toward lower average cost travel for customers, and an incredible record of ongoing improvements in safety. All in the context of globalization and a regulatory compliance environment second only to medicine in scope.
    There is plenty to learn from the Max episode about corporate decision making, competitive pressures and role of regulators. But I don’t think this author has anything helpful to contribute to the discussion.
     
  14. red27

    red27 Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2010
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    Thanks boxerman. That’s a very lucid and interesting article - it encapsulates perfectly the sad decline in traditional engineering which has caused the current tempest of problems besetting Boeing.

    M
     

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