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Ethiopian 737-8 MAX down. No survivors.

Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by RWatters, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. NW328GTS

    NW328GTS Formula 3
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    Or turn off the trim system or use the trim switches to trim in the opposite direction and then turn the trim system off. I

    ts not like trim system can sneak up on the pilot. Its noisy and very visible when its moving. A significant amount of training is done on what to do if the trim system is acting up. Whether the "acting up" is coming from damaged trim switches or a broken stall warning or a bad AOA or the MCAS issue the pilot action is the same.
     
  2. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

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    Trump has just grounded the plane in the U.S.
     
  3. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
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    Thing is it doesn’t act like sustained runaway trim, which is trained for on most aircraft, it just puts in trim in increments depending on flight characteristics. It’s obviously overloading marginally trained pilots right after takeoff just when they retract the flaps. it’s busy in the cockpit following ATC changing freqs flying a SID etc. if you have a newish Captain on type and a useless copilot you’ve got trouble if it acts up so close to the ground.
     
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  4. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Looking at the photo of the aircraft, I don't see much difference in the location of the engine thrust line compared to the 737 NG or even to the original -100/-200; the only difference is that the thrust is much further forward than on the original aircraft. So I don't see why MCAS is even necessary.

    Apparently there is a switch to turn MCAS off. Why not simply order everyone to turn it off and keep it off until a definitive solution is reached?
     
  5. jcurry

    jcurry F1 World Champ
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    2 deg (hard to discern looking at photos) would be 3.5% change in pitching moment due to thrust, then add higher thrust engines and net change could be closer to 10%, all which needs to be trimmed. Distance forward of the wing MAC means greater moment arm for any vertical component of thrust. It all adds up. Since fuselage lengths are unchanged from MAX to NG the tail trim loads will be greater.
     
  6. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    I was trying to roughly figure the amount of incidence in the thrust by looking at the photo of the Ethiopian 737 Max in the previous post. You did for me and everybody else.
     
  7. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    I think Boeing didn't do a good job in explaining the Lion Air case to the public. If they did they would have had the general public more at ease with a second plane.

    It's not Trump that did this. Its pressure from fliers and maybe even the airlines wanting someone to "do something" to take the heat off them.

    Now people will stop asking what kind of plane they are flying because they know it's not a Max.
     
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  8. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    The old saying 'if it ain't Boeing i ain't going' has been somewhat degraded .
     
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  9. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    The airplane that I was thinking about was the "Colonial Skimmer".
     
  10. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    Not London, but Paris (sorry, nothing to do with this week's votes in the House of Commons about a certain matter...) Ethiopan has asked for the french BEA to do it.
    Rgds
     
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  11. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    Thanks. It makes sense the BEA also handled their last 737 crash.That final report makes scary reading.https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/et-b100125.en/pdf/et-b100125.en.pdf
     
  12. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Mentioned this is the thread in Silver. The Ethiopian crash has ground eye witness statements about engine noise, smoke and "engine"debris as well as a burning trail of fuel vapor in the air. Could bird strike(s) have failed one engine, and the performance change and differential thrust caused the loss of control?
    They took off from a runway elevation of @7600 feet and only got to @8500 feet so not much time, altitude or airspeed to respond to a hypothetical single engine failure or maybe it was a flock of birds that affected both engines.

    May not be AOA / MCAS at all, unless the systems AOA sensor was affected in hypothetical bird strike (flock) and the system reacted erroneously?

    I think grounding all the planes world wide is premature.

    We dont have enough facts and it seems the MCAS override procedure is being communicated to flight crews since the Lion Air incident.

    Never worked on or with the bird birds, just biz jets (21 years).

    Sad to see the knee jerk reactions going on. Hopefully the data teaches lessons learned and provides root cause for corrective actions to be taken such as training and software updates.
     
  13. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    The FDR has arrived this Thursday morning in Roissy-Charles de Gaulle by the regular flight from Addis-abeba, as well as two representatives of Ethiopian.
    These will be brought in the BEA premises in Le Bourget (very close to CDG) and then opened in the presence of "american Experts".
    Rgds
     
  14. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Rookie
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    Is this a software only fix?
     
  15. INRange

    INRange F1 Rookie
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    I don't know the system. That said....it would certainly seem that whoever coded it ignored some basic principles of what sensors are prioritized and when the system should switch off attempting to control the plane. Imagine this is a self driving car that keeps trying to leave the road and the driver keeps fighting it. You would think that any automated system would not override the pilots or drivers physical actions. The purpose of the automated systems is to augment the pilots/drivers skills not replace them.

    The simple reality is that self driving cars and self flying planes today would kill people at an unacceptable rate as in evidence by the 737-800 MAX.
     
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  16. anthony47

    anthony47 Karting

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    Has anybody heard of the results of the CVR from the Lion Air crash?When we have already heard of them from the Prime Air crash.This seems very odd and should tell us exactly what went on in the cockpit.
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    And sadly they did it to themselves without help. Getting shot in the foot is typically a self inflicted wound.
     
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  18. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm not convinced it's software alone that caused it. Training may have some issues. The Lion Air case showed maintenance issues also but the report isn't finalized.

    Often with events like this its a combination of issues, not just one.
     
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  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Almost never a singular mistake. We usually get several chances at avoiding big screwups.
     
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  20. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Which is my point about getting the facts first. Knee jerk reactions are often wrong and do unnessary damage.

    But as I said earlier Boeing did a lousy job of explaining the first one. People were shocked a practically new jet would crash that way. Now another. It’s human nature to try to put two and two together even if the answer may be five.
     
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  21. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Rookie
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    Certainly there are a few guys at Boeing that are saying "this was our fear all along/we told you so, etc..." when changing the geometry of the engines and flight characteristics of an aircraft designed originally as short/medium range.
     
  22. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    I think if Boeing suspected something different (like terrorism, a bird strike, or pilot sabotage), they would be a lot more vocal now about not wanting a grounding. It seems to me they suspect something but believe its still very rare or hard to do or in fact, something that's not directly their fault but involves some systems of the plane.

    What may have to happen is the Max brand may be so damaged that they may have to repair them all and then call them another plane. Sort of like the Galaxy Note 9. People don't trust them.

    Right now there is confusion over the 737 Max 9 and the 737 900. People think its the same plane.
     
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  23. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    You left out another complication in Boeing's possible storyline. Would Boeing really want to say that they are selling aircraft to airlines that are too incompetent in their pilot standards, insufficiently rigorous training programs, sketchy maintenance commitments and la oversight by the national aviation authority? When they alluded to some of that with Lion Air the chairman hit back at Boeing and suspended his orders. In this specific case with MCAS it is also possible that giving instructions to disconnect the system could raise Type Certificate certification issues.
     
  24. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

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    A maybe naive question.....

    When a new aircraft is flight tested and certified over several years, etops etc. Is this generally done with company test pilots or is there a level of ‘beta’ testing with customer pilots later in the test programme?
    I work in an industry where we have to design-in safety for all user demographics and cannot assume a level of competence and specifically we cannot blame a lack of competence if there are issues in the field. Why should the aviation industry not work like that?
    It’s surprising to here comments on here pointing at training etc. Of course all pilots are not equal but the design of the aircraft systems surely should consider that spread.
     
  25. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    The worse thing for Boeing is if airlines with MAXs on order start cancelling them and ordering Airbuses instead. If one or two do it, it might invoke a tidal wave of cancellations.

    Boeing (like most of its counterparts) was a better company when it was being run by engineers and not bean counters.....
     

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