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Euro Daytona taillight (tail light, brake light) lens construction

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by gcalex, Nov 28, 2019.

  1. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

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    So having been generally surprised that there don't seem to be easily found pictures of exactly what original Euro Daytona (and Dino) tail/brake light lenses look like (to say nothing of how they are constructed), I bit the bullet, and bought an example lens that was sufficiently old and ratty, that (1) it seemed pretty clear to be of original vintage, and (2) it did not seem a crime to cut it apart and see how it was put together.

    Heat-gun softened the clue, and a little persuasion with an Xacto knife did the rest.

    For the record, the result is documented below. Interesting to note that the "silvering" is likely to block more light from the inside, rather than reflect light from the outside. Also interesting that the pattern on the reflector is very much of the "left-right halves" variety, rather than the "hex pie slices" that one often sees.

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  2. Wheels1

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  3. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

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    Assuming their product pics are accurate, you can see that they look tangibly different.

    Of course, there might be some vintage of Daytona where the SuperPerformance ones might be accurate. I don't have the depth of experience to know...
     
  4. Wheels1

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    They look lighter in color that the originals but that may be the photo, otherwise they look much the same from what I can see with all of the Carello markings, but may be made in one piece?

    They did not change throughout all the productions years as far as I know, fitted to Euro cars and all markets of RHD cars.
    Superformance one below, could get you out of a tight spot if you cannot get an original one.





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  5. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

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    Note the "SAE ST 67" at the bottom.

    Near as I have been able to find photographic evidence of, that lettering appeared on the amber lenses of both the US and Euro cars, but only on the US brake lenses (which would not have the reflector at all).

    I've been wondering whether maybe the Euro amber lenses should also *not* have that lettering, but I've yet to come across either a picture or an example for sale of an amber lens that did not have it...

    The font is also thinner, and the reflector pattern does not seem to have the same left-and-right look to it.

    As you say, however, it might just be the photography.

    I've not been willing to pay for a sample to satisfy my curiosity about the font/pattern/color, because the "SAE ST 67" seems sufficiently questionable that I disqualified...
     
  6. TTR

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    May I ask the purpose of this exercise ? Just general curiosity or ... ?
     
  7. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

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    Oh, I'm just trying to put a Euro Daytona back to as "original" a config as possible; which of course, begs the question of what was original to the Euro cars.

    At this point, for those brake lenses, it seems to me that one needs to find original ones from the early 70's. The newer reproductions don't look quite right to me...
     
  8. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    very doubtful the amber lens had SAE as it was never allowed or certified in USA. only red lenses allowed for rear lights during daytona build period.
     
  9. TTR

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    ... but it's also possible CARELLO used same molds to cast both colors instead of making one for each market.

    It’s not and has never been uncommon for manufacturers to cast (automotive) products with same molds to create market specific and even “aftermarket” items by just blocking/covering some specific info ( OE part number, etc) in the mold during manufacturing.
     
  10. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    they cast the euro lenses before the sae requirement was implemented.
     
  11. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

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    #11 gcalex, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
    This was my original thinking as well, but the lettering itself says "67"; so clearly there was some expectation that the requirements were coming, long before any Daytonas or Dinos made it officially to the USA.

    Also, there are a *lot* of amber lenses on a lot of cars that have "67" on them, and it seems hard to imagine that all of them are misguided reproductions. Again, however, I don't have the depth of experience to know for sure.

    What I do know is that I have spent a fair amount of time (probably too much time) trying to find a picture or example of an amber lens without the SAE stuff on it, and not been successful.

    If someone has a picture of such a lens, I would *love* to see it; though part of me would be sad, because if they exist, they are far rarer than the Euro brake lenes...

    Below is a pretty typical example of what I've always found in good pictures of Euro Daytonas and Dinos. Note the left-side-right-side reflector pattern on the brake lens; my guess is that the brake lens is original, so it seems to me like there is a tangible chance that the turn lens is as well.

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  12. TTR

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    SAE requirement of what ?
    SAE, unlike like DOT or NHTSA, is not a U.S. government agency and IIRC, was founded over hunderd years ago and many of its "Standards" have been adapted around the globe and many, if not most, have nothing to do with governmental regulations or their implementation timelines.
     
  13. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

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    #13 gcalex, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
    Merry Xmas to All!

    Inspired by Timo's query, I decided that the answer to the questions in this thread, might be found by a little spelunking into what the various markings actually mean.

    Turns out Timo is right; SAE has no "requirements" per se; it just has a bunch of recommendations that various countries can choose to adopt/require.

    Any SAE markings on lenses indicate a claim by the manufacturer that the lens meets the SAE recommendations in place at the time of design (year of design being 1967 in the case of those "SAE ST 67" markings).

    Turns out that the "ST" in those markings stands for "Stop and Tail lights"; there are actually separate recommendations for the two types of lights, and the "ST" indicates compliance with both; so "yes" it would seem that the same molds were used for both the red and amber versions of these lenses.

    Interestingly, there are separate recommendations for directional indicators, and compliance with them ought to be noted with an "I"; to my eyes, however, it looks like the recommendations for tail-lights are strictly stronger than for indicator-lights, so maybe the "I" was deemed to be redundant.

    Regarding SAE markings on the Euro brake-lights, it looks like there probably never were any lenses (of the construction I posted pics of) that had such markings. It seems the SAE recommendations for brake-lights probably were not met by that design; for one, the recommendations call for a minimum lit area of 8-sq-in, and the lit area of the Euro brake-lights is just short of that (7.9-sq-in); also, it seems very unlikely that the off-angle brightness recommendations could be met with that large reflector blocking the line-of-sight to the bulb.

    For me at least, the above is enough to give-up looking for Euro brake-lights with the SAE marking, or any amber indicator light without the SAE markings...

    Oh, and interestingly, it seems like the US regs did not actually require the red indicator lenses at the time the Daytonas were in production. The red seems to be more of a concern about matching "norms" at the time (in earlier times, red was required, but those requirements were lifted by 67). The things about Euro cars that would have been a problem are the non-compliance of the Euro brake-lights, and the clear *front* indicator lights.
     
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