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Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by enjoythemusic, Feb 14, 2004.

  1. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Steven
    To Rob and Everyone,

    As members of Ferrari Chat we are a group of enthusiasts who symbolize not just many millions of dollars in revenue for Ferrari, we also have the ability to insure the image of the marquee. There have been recent events that may have been resolved if we, as a group, have a proper and respected voice with Ferrari. My goal with this post is to insure we have proper representation. Please allow me to use two recent examples and showing how Ferrari Chat members may have benefited.

    Virtually everyone here is familiar with Brian and his 360/Stradale situation. Upon looking at the poll this morning I feel utter astonishment to see that more members (35.05%) feel that “Brian will never get a car from FNA; only used F-cars for him.” And adding insult to injury we have 19.59% voting for “Brian will keep getting bumped until the last Stradale produced.” While it is indeed up to each member to try and resolve a situation on their own, there comes a point when if we, as members of Ferrari Chat, had proper representation then Brian may be more aware of the situation. Perhaps, dare I say it; Brian might already have his car.

    Please allow me to show you another recent situation. MY355 had his headers burn through. Now many of you know this is a “known problem” with the car due to a design flaw (see thread at http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7739). It would appear obvious to me that Ferrari of North America appears to grant warranty replacement to some, yet not to others. Dealers install Tubi exhausts and as Dino said in his post “In the U.S, the Federal emissions warranty is 8 years or 80k miles. In California it is reduced to 7years or 70k miles.” Naturally if Ferrari of North America were possibly breaking the law by not replacing this part under warranty, then we would naturally need to take action. Am sure many of you are aware that the DOT/EPA/etc do handle recalls when a known problem exists. It would be simple for us, as a good example of Ferrari owners, send the appropriate government officials photos/receipts/etc and have said authorities handle the situation. It makes no sense having Ferrari install the same defective part(s) into our cars time and time again only to have them eventually fail.

    It is indeed disheartening when Speedy308 says to others “FWIW, someone asked me about my F1 crew jacket. "Does Ferrari give you one of those when you buy the car??" I said "Ferrari doesn't give you %$^%(*&, when you buy the car!!!"


    So I ask of you Rob Lay, as you benefit tens of thousands of dollars from this website due to advertising and a strong membership, including asking members to provide funds to continue your racing hobby, in turn we should have proper representation. This would be a rather simple task, yet one of great importance. To paraphrase an ancient proverb, a single stick is easily shattered, but a tight bundle is virtually unbreakable.

    Rob Lay, this new responsibility would begin by sending a letter to both Ferrari of North America and also Ferrari S.p.A. We have quite a few owners here who have excellent legal background, while others can assist with public relations. Hopefully this post is simply the beginning of a wonderful, prosperous journey that benefits all parties. We need not hide and cower when asked about the way members of Ferrari Chat are treated, instead, we should be able to stand up tall and be pleased with who we are and the marquee of cars we represent.

    Enjoy the Drive,

    Steven R. Rochlin
     
  2. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
    Advising Moderator

    Jul 20, 2003
    44,153
    SFPD
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    Dirty Harry
    Not to be a smartarse, but reread Mr. Rochlin's last sentence and reflect on this...

    December 1, 1955: Rosa Parks refused to yield her bus seat in Montgomery, Alabama
    June 5, 1989: Wang Wei Lin refused to yield to 18 tanks in Tiananmen Square - Beijing, China

    More than nobility is at stake
    __

    Note: The Thread to which Tom B refers to in the post below
     
  3. TOM B

    TOM B Formula 3

    Jul 24, 2003
    1,038
    Orange County, NY
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    Thomas Buckley
    Stephen,

    Well put, extremely valid, and fortuitous. I just finished respond ing to a lister in the NYS forum who was qouted $1400.00 by FoLI to straighten a bent rim on his 355. Wheels America will do it for $109.00. Enough is enough. FNA, FERRARI, have got to realize that although the marque is "exclusive" in many respects, the fact that the waiting list is so long for new cars, is no excuse to treat customers poorly. Just because you CAN treat people this way is no excuse to do it.

    I'm with you.

    Tom
     
  4. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Steven
    Wax,

    All true, yet remember if we try and fail there is always the "court of peers". Am sure a letter campaign to many publications/government officials/etc/(whatever is appropriate) would get someone's attention.

    The tanks... well, now the public is quite aware of the situation. Thank you for pointing out how ONE PERSON can make a difference. Now imagine what a group of us can accomplish.

    Enjoy the Drive,

    Steven R. Rochlin
     
  5. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
    13,234
    Never home
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    Dr. Dumb Ass
    Actually, I'd be interested in how many people bought a Ferrari and never bought another one but moved on to a different marque. First time owners might run away if they actually saw those numbers. I have a friend with one of the limited edition cars of late that is selling it to get a Carrera GT. They won't be back in the Ferrari world because of a lot of crap.

    I remember a comment Mike Sheehan made one time, there are plenty of rears out there for every Ferrari seat. Only when people stop buying will Ferrari change their ways...
     
  6. flyingboa

    flyingboa Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2003
    1,551
    Italy/India
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    Eugenio
    Just a little thought. It is not the amount of pressure; all that matters is where you apply it...
    I cannot think that FIAT group (Ferrari owner), with all its troubles, can gladly see potential revenues go down the drain...
    If anyone in this forum personally knows someone in a powerful enough position in the FIAT organization, why this person does not suggest him to have a look at this forum in order to have a direct and correct perception of what happens in the real world?

    Realizing that continuing this way they will loose money, perhaps that will make them change their attitude.

    Ciao

    Eugenio
     
  7. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Steven
    Eugenio,

    >>>It is not the amount of pressure; all that matters is where you apply it...<<<

    Agreed. Those who know me within my main field/hobby realize i go "directly for the jugular." For now it may be best to try the gentleman's way with Fiat/Ferrari. There is plenty of time to provide the appropriate action/reaction accordingly.

    Enjoy the Drive,

    Steven R. Rochlin
     
  8. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Steve, Wax, Tom , Eric
    I've been gassed and I've seen tanks on the streets.
    I owned and driven Ferrari's for over 30 years.
    I've had wheels fall off. Chassis' that cracked. Defrosters that were rags, thermostats that were cardboard. Engines that blew. Engines that burned a quart of oil every 500 miles. (When new)
    You have a choice. You can say: "No MAS!"
    You can walk away and start your own car co. as Mr Lambo did.
    You can buy a P.
    Or instead of windgeing you can write them, talk to them, and, as I have found , together you can work it out.
    For me Ferrari's are Art and Magic.
    If you lose that loving feeling: Move on.
     
  9. Stickanddice

    Stickanddice Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2002
    2,473
    Excellent post.

    I was going to purchase a Maserati based on Jim's recommendation. I got a pompous dealership with a (as a fellow enthusiast put it) "disinterested cordial" sales staff. As much as I respect Jim's opinion/recommendation I voted with my wallet and bought a CL600 Mercedes-Benz. No car marque will ever get my business as long as the dealers are uncooperative. I always found it sadly fascinating how people make excuses for poor service in the name of Ferrari when it is so apparent to those standing aside and looking that they are getting reamed.

    Cheers
     
  10. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
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    Dr. Dumb Ass
    Jim:

    Don't get me wrong. Barring a financial tradgedy, I plan on keeping my car for a long, long time. Finishing a Ph.D. and working in China has raised my patience for dealing with BS exponentially.

    I'm just adding gas to the fire. The real enthusiasts will deal with it as part of the myth. Been that way for 50 years now in the USA, not going to change any time soon.

    Ferraris aren't for everyone. Its not meant to be an elitest statement, just a fact.

    Great recent shots of the P4, can't wait to see the finished product.

    Cheers.
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Gambei! (sp?)
    Thanks.
    Best
     
  12. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Steven
    Napolis,

    Like you i have been gassed and have seen various things during my life/world travels. At some point there needs to be accountability. Selling cars with defective emission parts and then refusing to fix them is but one example. There has to be someone, somewhere who has to answer. Seem to recall how Australia had to ban a certain PRODUCTION Ferrari car as the test mule they gave to the officials for approval were different than the production run.

    Yes Enzo did quite a few questionable things during his life, yet this is 2004 and there is a new regime in the ranks. They need to be held accountable and own up to errors and find appropriate solution accordingly.

    Enjoy the Drive,

    Steven R. Rochlin
     
  13. TOM B

    TOM B Formula 3

    Jul 24, 2003
    1,038
    Orange County, NY
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    Thomas Buckley
    Judge, Napolis,

    You guys are no fun. Where's your sense of adventure ? Grab a torch and help storm the castle ! If left to you two, the Frankenstein monster woul still be running amok. You call yourselves "Villagers" ?

    Tom,
    Purveyer of used torches, clubs, and pitchforks. Visit our website at: WWW.weaponsofsemimassdestruction.com. :)
     
  14. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

    Mar 16, 2002
    13,337
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    Jack
    There's definitely merit to this. While Ferrari and its network have the advantage initially of limited production numbers, this should be something that the owners can use to their advantage down the road. Ultimately they will need us more than the other way around, and for every dealership there are a number of qualified, less-expensive garages capable of providing the same services. Usually run by ex-dealership mechanics tired of sharing the high maintenance fees. Ferrari plans on selling cars long into the future, I assume, but like you said, it's 2004 and people have less patience for BS. Ferrari need to firmly fix their place as the premier exotic car builder, and that can only come in the aftercare of its customers. Otherwise, 50 years from now they could wind up a trivia question.

    Who knows--last election they chased the Soccer moms. This election it's the NASCAR dads. In 2008, candidates will be kissing up to the Ferrari Chatters!
     
  15. audionut

    audionut Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2003
    566
    Toronto, Canada
    Full Name:
    Adrian Low
    I am no racing hiostorian, but I caught a documentary on Jackie Stewart, I believe called the Flying Scot (?). One of the things he apparently was responsible for was to band the drivers together to force team owners and track owners to make the sport safer...runoffs, better chassis design etc. Apparently ambulances and medics were not a given, much less easy access to hospitals. The prevailing idea then from the track and team owners was "if you can't stand the heat..." (direct quote from the documentary). Much as I respect Napolis, his accomplishments, his contributions etc, as a consumer, if I bought a product that is faulty, the manufacturer does has to be accountable. I may NOT buy from it again, but that accountablility still stands. Of course you should try to resove it amicably, or otherwise, first. If however, it is clearly a design flaw, manufacturer's indifference, potentially impacts on safety and environmental issue, frankly I don't see why we should cut them any slack. As CURRENT owners, for better or for worse, we should be entitled to some rights.

    Flame away....
     
  16. flyingboa

    flyingboa Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2003
    1,551
    Italy/India
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    Eugenio
    Jim,

    You are right and wrong at the same time.

    Right, because in the love for the car is not enought, it is plenty out there of sport cars that are more value for money, more reliable, with better assembly quality and with a better service net than Ferrari (as Allan keeps reminding us...). So do not complain, buy something else. I just bought a Ferrari, so it is clear where I stay...

    Wrong, because if something is wrong and there is a way to change it, you must do it. I love Ferrari, but if something stinks I am not ready just to say "it is part of the mith, go along with it". I will just say that something is getting rotten and I want it changed. If Ferrari continues this way, soon love could not be enought to keep them afloat. Let us help them urging for an improvement.

    Ciao

    Eugenio
     
  17. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
    Honorary

    Dec 5, 2001
    6,485
    Grandview NY
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    Herr Prof.
    I don't think its Rob's responsibility to be an advocate. He does provide a forum where, if enough members are incensed, they can take collective action. But that's premature. We don't know enough facts. (I also agree with Jim that going full frontal with Ferrari will get Brian zip). So, before anyone jumps on the bandwagon, it would be helpful to know what discussions Brian has had with FNA, as opposed to the dealer. I have always found FNA to be helpful, and responsive, but you've gotta give them the chance.
     
  18. audionut

    audionut Formula Junior

    Apr 25, 2003
    566
    Toronto, Canada
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    Adrian Low
    Hi WHart, long time...how's the Pcar? Went to talk to a dealer about the same car, so we'll see if we can pull it off!
     
  19. branko

    branko F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Mar 17, 2003
    3,710
    Birmingham, Alabama
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    Branko Medenica
    Steven,
    I am with you 100%. I also was gassed and had rocks and bottles thrown at me in demonstrations in the South. But I also agree, you need to get the information to the right people, high on the corporate ladder, to have any effect. Otherwise, you are just farting in the wind.
     
  20. robinh

    robinh Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2004
    622
    Cambridgeshire, Engl
    Full Name:
    Robin
    With very few exceptions I have found all of the Ferrari/Masserati dealers here in th UK to be polite, accurate and informative. They are generally clear and open about pricing and while post sales costs can be high for servicing and spare parts I have not found these to be extreme when compared to other marques including BMW, Porsche, Merc etc.

    Ferrari's in the UK are sold at list, as i think are all cars that are not subject to some discount. I have never heard of a dealer selling over list and once your order has been accepted I do not think there is much, if any, queue jumping or shady dealings going on.

    I think the difficulties, Brian being only one that I have been very surprised about, may well stem from how cars are sold and marketed in the US, compared certainly with the UK and perhaps with Europe in general.

    In no way am I trying to say that things are better this side of the pond, but if the way car selling is done here is easier to live with then perhaps the issue you face may be wider than just trying to make representations to a particular dealer or even to Ferrari.
     
  21. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    44,412
    Texas!
    Steven and all, while I admire your passion and am willing to support your efforts, one lesson that I have learned in life is to pick your fights carefully. You only get so many bullets in life and, once they're gone, there are no more.

    What Jim is saying is that this is a free marketplace. As long as people like Brian (And I'm just using you as an example, not to criticize you) are willing to put up with this kind of bs, this song will go on forever. In a market driven economy, it really doesn't matter whether this screwup is the fault of the Dealer, FNA, or the Factory. Brian got screwed. Ferrari as a company should either make him whole or he should take his business elsewhere. That's how the game is played.

    If if had be me, I would have told them to take a hike when the first car disappeared. Speaking bluntly, the Ford GT will probaby be a better car than the 360CS. So if I wanted a great mid-engined car, I would have voted with my feet.

    Again, this is how the game is played. Ferrari may appear to hold all the cards. But you have the power of your checkbook. If enough folks keep their wallet in their pocket, even Ferrari will be forced to join the 21 century.

    Money talks and bull hockey walks.

    Dr "Soapbox" Tax
     
  22. Tyler

    Tyler F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2001
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    dusty old farm town
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    Tyler

    Dr. Tax, excellent post. I agree 100%!
     
  23. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
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    Savannah
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    I NEED A JOB
    a question?? could we pehaps band together in the form of a petition and or a letter writing campaign to bring to light what BRIAN STRADALE has gone through??? i am " new blood" as i see it. i am working/ planning ect to get a ferrari. i have sat here at my computer completely agast at how people that spend imho big $$$ are getting screwed. poor dealer treatment, bad design flaws such as the testarossa's weak transaxle, 355"s with faulty exhaust manifolds, cars that are ordered and sercured by deposit that DISAPPEAR with i " i dunno" excuse from the dealer. why the heck am i working so hard, only to have to look forward to this treatment when i can purchase my first new ferrari???? IMO even those of us with the older cars will become important if we band together, think of how much " we" spend to keep older fcars on the road and what "we" represent to the younger generations that want to work hard and get what we have. on the record, i am not an owner yet. i have settled on seeking out a euro carb 308GTB. several members here have taken time to speak with me on the phone and answer my questions and steer me in the right direction. fcat has my full support if there is anything i may do to help both BRIAN as a person and FERRARICHAT as a COMMUNITY OF MANY VOICES. thank you Rob Lay for giving us the means to be together.
     
  24. JeffMN

    JeffMN Rookie

    Jan 18, 2004
    28
    In my humble opinion...

    The best way to address problems of this nature is let the dealer know that really ALOT of people are aware of what's going on.

    A few months back someone won a car auction on ebay for FAR below market price. The dealer tried to back out of the deal. Here's the result:

    http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=1173669

    In automotive forums across the interent you'll find links about what happened to this guy. People started showing up at the dealership and taking pictures of the people that ripped him off, pictures of the vehicle they claimed they didn't have anymore, pictures of the people who ripped him off, faxes, phone calls, etc. They called the automakers headquarters, called other dealerships.

    To this day I've never seen a story get legs so quickly.

    -Jeff
     
  25. Cavallino Motors

    Cavallino Motors F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    May 31, 2001
    14,143
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    Martin W.
    As you may well know FNA and Fspa is reading F-Chat closely.

    Steve,
    I do not think that Rob has any need to send FNA or Fspa any requests of our community. The thousands and thousands of Dineros go right back on this site. I doubt that Rob makes much more than Pennies when all is accounted for.
    As a sponsor I can see the numbers, add them up and see there is no fortune to be made.

    It is always up to the individual. First you try to work it out with your dealer. They have cloud with FNA and can make things happen. If they don't thenyou contact FNA if they don't then you contact Fspa and if they don't then put your rant on F-Chat.

    I believe most problems are being worked out if you use the proper channels.

    Example:
    A friend of mine has had a PPI done on his new 355 at a FNA dealer. The dealer said the car was good no issue. He bought the car got it delivered brought it to his guy just to double check and bang $10,000 worth of repairs required. He is a member here and could have gone off the chart but he did the right thing, contacted the dealer and they did good on him. They pay for the entire repairs they did not see plus offered him a 30% discount on a required 30K.

    I hear your frustration though and there are lots of things I don't like about the FNA and Fspa policies. I have ranted about those as well, especially on the import ban. Makes great discussions.

    my 2c.
     

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