Evolutionary vs. Revolutionary | FerrariChat

Evolutionary vs. Revolutionary

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Piper, Dec 14, 2011.

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  1. Piper

    Piper Two Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 6, 2010
    25,415
    Northern Virginia
    Full Name:
    Bob
    I'm relatively new to the ferrari 'verse. I've owned two, in just two short years. I haven't been around long enough to form or accept some of the time honored notions, real ferrari's are manuals, Cali's are for girls, etc. I've still got a very objective view, albeit admittedly borne in part from ignorance. Toggie wants to teach me how to drive a standard. I think he feels I'm missing out. Maybe he's right, but my current musings are over the next car, not the generations of ferrari's past.

    I'm looking to sell my 430 spider, not because I don't love it. I cherish it. But I like change, and want something new soon. Here's the thing. I want a 599, but I'm really coming to the conclusion that getting into anything that isn't dual clutch at this point is foolish, still expensive and ripe for major depreciation, higher maintenance costs, etc. I'm at the end of a really long list in Maranello for a 458 spider, so I'll be there eventually. In the meantime, what next? I'm not asking what I should like. Far from it, I've already decided that I appreciate the entire lineup. I like the 612 in bianco, the 599 in rossa and the Cali in grigio. But technologically, gee, belts, clutch, or dual clutch respectively. Technologically, why not the Cali? Seriously. All you ferrari vets, why exactly is it the Cali is a "girl" ferrari? Seems to me it's the best bang for the buck out there by far anyway.

    Then the third part of my quandary, once the entire sports car world has gone direct injection and dual clutch, the driving experience is going to be more homogeneous. I realize ferrari may always win out in handling, aerodynamics, styling, and I'm not looking to get flamed over this. I love ferrari, and I'm around to stay. But when the C7 vette with dual clutch and direct injection is available as an alternative. We won't be comparing manuals, or thumbing noses at the Z16 vs F1, which isn't even a comparison really. My point is that they're going to be more more similar driving experiences here soon.

    So, I'm considering whether I should even have another clutch, whether I want a Cali next (laugh away, I think they're gorgeous), and in general, musing over the lay of of land a few years from now, how the revolutionary change to dual clutch and direct injection is going to change the way we view the field.
     
  2. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    22,599
    Gates Mills, Ohio
    Full Name:
    Jon
    A couple of thoughts...

    1. If you get into the latest technology, you're always going to get killed on depreciation and be buying into some very expensive and complicated hardware. But, if you want to cut your 0-60 times from 4.2 sec, say, to 3.8 sec, that's the price you pay. Modern cars are almost never going to be collectible or retain value due to the inherent obsolescence of their electronics.

    If you have any interest in investment, you need to go with the blue chip stuff from the Enzo era when the cars were simple, handbuilt and rare (and, of course, slow and not all that easy to drive...)

    My philosophy regarding cars is to lease the new and own the classic. Financially, it tends to be the best approach.

    2. When you talk about sports cars, the definition is slippery. Probably almost everyone would call the Dino 246 a sports car. Most people would call the F430 a sports car, although IMHO it's probably bigger than a sports car would be. A smaller number would classify the California as one, because it is focused on luxury, with a whiff of practicality, and was not designed for the track -- consider it a more expensive Merc SL/Lexus SC430. If you drive one and like it, then go for it. But if you're a hardcore sports car enthusiast you might want something like a Porsche 997 GT3 RS, or whatever the lightweight 458 will be called.

    3. A Corvette is a Corvette. They're very good now (if you don't study the rental car-level interiors...) and a good value, but they are everywhere, and Ferrari does offer something more distinctive. Even a common, regular production Ferrari (360, F430, California) is rare compared to a Corvette, so you have to decide if you want to satisfy the individuality itch as much as the technology one.
     
  3. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    the purist is having his machismo challanged by the F1 transmissions and comfortable GT configuations. It is a loss of control and power, flipping paddles with finger tips, making resultant gear changes superior (faster) than anyone can do while wrestling with the gear change lever. It also is part nostalgia, the end of the era of do it yourself gear changes.
    A GT friendly Ferrari suffers the same fate from the purist, creature features, soften the rawness of the brut. The GT friendlier models do not extract the level of performance of the more trackable cars, losing some bragging rights to claim being the fastest and most powerful. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter which Ferrari one picks, they will have a car that is superior to all others. Not everyone is into extracting 10/10ths every time we drive. It doesn't matter what choise of model has been, it is a Ferrari.
     
  4. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    If I had an F1 trans I'd probably leave it in auto mode most of the time. I'd own the Cali in a heartbeat. All my vehicles right now are manual transmission and I enjoy them, but I like to use my Ferrari every day and I want out of it what I want out of it. When you are rolling down the highway the only person that needs to be happy and comfortable is you. My wifes car is a dual clutch VW. I've put it in manual once in the three years we've owned it. My Ferrari is a pleasure car not a race car and I've gotten most of the hot rodding on the street out of my system so I think an F1 would fit my lifestyle at this time. Although I do like the interior of the Maserati better. I must be getting old :)

    I can see that several years into the future a manual transmission will not be a car people drive for any real distances. The dual clutches are fast becoming superior and preferred. Even Honda with a regular auto is getting better fuel economy out of it than the manual. Crazy times.

    At least motorcycles are staying with the manual trans as best I can tell.
     
  5. anunakki

    anunakki Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 8, 2005
    78,900
    Las Vegas Nevada
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    Check out the Murci Roadster. Might be a fun alternative until your 458 arrives.
     
  6. S Brake

    S Brake F1 World Champ

    Aug 3, 2006
    17,182
    Utah
    Full Name:
    Dave
    The way I see it, there will always be a market for traditional F1 transmissions. Similarly to how there is still demand for traditional manuals even though the F1 is superior as far as performance and efficiency so I wouldn't let that deter you from picking a 599 over a California.

    If the Cali checks all the right boxes for you (looks, 4 seats, dual clutch, direct injection, convertible, etc.), then it would make sense to go with that over a 599. Used Cali prices have held up fairly well. As for people calling it a chick car, they're just angry that Ferrari stopped making the 308 and 355. Who cares what they think, the Cali is a great car and you can't go wrong with it or a 599.
     
  7. Piper

    Piper Two Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 6, 2010
    25,415
    Northern Virginia
    Full Name:
    Bob
    I just wonder a lot of things. How well will dual clutch transmissions keep up? Design seems bulletproof, but nothing is ever bulletproof and I don't get what the ultimate drawbacks may be. It just really seems like having a clutch or automatic is going to seem ridiculous in a very short time.

    You ever look at the rear seats in the Cali? Good for a couple of six-year-olds sitting cross-legged and that's about it. More like a built in leather shelf for a laptop or brief case, or purse :) I love the 599, but from 550 to 575 to 599, there's been evolution. Going to a dual clutch direct injection, and potentially four wheel drive? I can see buying a 599 this year and considering it a disappointment in a very short time. I don't know if this would be the case, which of course is why I'm even bringing it up. I guess the next generation will be unobtainium for a while, so the 599 may still make sense for a year or two, which is as long as I'm hanging onto them. I just don't want to get caught in a mass sell off either. Who would.

    Conceptually, it just seems like the cars of the next decade, all of them, are going to be revolutionary in so many ways. Good time to be a car enthusiast. But at the same time, options for purists, which I'm obviously not, are going to continue to be diluted. No more sticks. F1's are going to be seen as ridiculously expensive to maintain. We all celebrate we no longer have to pull motors to do major service, but an expensive clutch replacement is just as bad. Hell, FOW gave me an outside estimate of $10k for a clutch on my 360 last year. Yeowza!! I've become a much better F1 driver this last year, and recognize this service isn't something you should have to deal with often, but it would be out there as an eventual major service and seen in a different light than it is today, simply avoidable.

    As I said, in the right color, any of the current lineup would do it for me as a next ferrari experience. But if all I'm looking for is an intro to V12 ferrari, why not a hugely depreciated 612? ( one answer, COLOR). But if I'm only planning on keeping it for a year or two, and some 6k miles, why not? Should be interesting. Doubt I'm going that way, but if you're not going for the latest tech, the oldest current might be on the table.
     
  8. Futureman

    Futureman Formula 3

    May 16, 2007
    2,024
    I was speaking with one of the guys at Ferrari of Atlanta about the dual clutch. He said he went to a 458 Tech Briefing put on by the factory. The question of how long the dual clutch would last was asked and the answer was, "for the life of the car". Then he and I debated what Ferrari meant by "life of the car". Their view of "life of the car" and ours may be very different. Interesting statement none the less.
     
  9. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    in an interview the pres of Ferrari calls the Cali configuration is 2 + 1 ( and then sort of... as a last resort ) He agrees the space is very limited
     
  10. Piper

    Piper Two Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 6, 2010
    25,415
    Northern Virginia
    Full Name:
    Bob
    Jerry, sorry, missed this. Very curious to drive a Lambo but just wouldn't be caught dead owning one. I do not dislike them. I just don't believe that I would look right or feel right on one. A test drive is one thing, few laps on a track or something. But I take my 430 grocery shopping. I get enough looks already.

    That's what I keep hearing. I know one of the top mechanics in the USA for Nissan, and that's his take on their dual clutch as well, and he'd be honest with me. Simply, the concept itself is more stable and reliable. The fact that the Cali bests the 430 by a half second with 30 less ponies makes clear that it's the choice for performance. Since I don't track, the Cali is right up there as the smart choice. The testosterone says 599. But car choice isn't the reason for the thread.

    When the entire ferrari lineup is all next gen in terms of the above, will production ferrari's, not GTO or 16M or such, but all the rest, seem not last year, but last century, old news?
     
  11. 355dreamer

    355dreamer F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Apr 3, 2006
    10,476
    DC Metro
    Full Name:
    L.C.
    Bob,
    I say you go for the Cali. Nothing to be ashamed of. I had the privilege of driving one of the first ones delivered to the area, and I was very impressed. The Cali fits most of the criteria you are looking for. It blends in, offers a fun driving experience, and won't be obsolete for at least a few more years.
    I have a friend who uses his as a DD, and IMHO, that's exactly what it was meant for. Pick up a used one and enjoy driving it as intended till your 458 is ready.
     
  12. S Brake

    S Brake F1 World Champ

    Aug 3, 2006
    17,182
    Utah
    Full Name:
    Dave
    The dual clutch transmission is intended to last for the life of the car. That being said, there are still instances of transmission failures due to gremlins of some sort. Could be very expensive out of warranty if the only way to fix is to replace the entire unit.
     

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