??? Exhaust options for the Scuderia and 16M ??? | FerrariChat
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??? Exhaust options for the Scuderia and 16M ???

Discussion in '360/430' started by F430GT, Mar 30, 2010.

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  1. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    #1 F430GT, Mar 30, 2010
    I'm looking to replace my stock exhaust system, due to several reasons (applies to the 16M and Scuderia).

    1) The flaps stay close below 3,200 rpm despite of being at wide-open-throttle, and the lack of power is noticeable. Once I pass the 3,200 rpmn at WOT there is a surge on acceleration due strictly to the valves bypassing the muffler.

    2) Leaving the flaps (valves) on bypass mode permanently, produces good and linear power across the entire powerband, but the sound and resonance at low rpm (under 3,000 rpm) is not nice at all.

    3) The stock system has a combo header/cats, then the secondary bigger cats, then a muffler with two independent chambers for each cylinder bank. With the valves open, the muffler is bypassed, so the only devices softening the sound are the four cats.

    I like the high pitch produced by some Ferraris like the 348, 355 with Capristo and sport cats, and some 360. I'm not a fan of the 360 Stradale, 360 Challenge, 430 Scuderia and 16M or 430 Challenge sound, all these cars sound like 2 Honda Civic engines with straight pipes.

    430 Scuderia systems that I have heard so far (videos) with nice high pitch sound, the Kreissieg F1, and a muffler bypass system built in NorCal by TT Competizione. Other than these two, the videos from the Tubi and Novitec produce a similar sound to stock.

    I'm also interested on weight savings from the bulky system installed by the factory. There is easily 90+ lbs of exhaust hardware that can be reduced to 25 lbs with the right construction and materials.

    From some measurements I took, it seems that headers, catalytic converters and the muffler itself are compatible between the Scuderi/16M and the standard F430, the exception being the pipes from the mufflers to the outlet which are radically different between the F430/Spider and the Scuderia/16M.

    Worth considering is a set of headers with the pre-cats deleted (Joe Fabiani's headers), and sport cats, combined with a low restriction but good sound lightweight muffler. With the corresponding ECU tuning, the Scuderia can gain another 20-30 rwhp.
     
  2. BusDriver

    BusDriver Formula Junior

    Mar 30, 2004
    416
    Northeast USA
    #2 BusDriver, Mar 30, 2010
    Are you sure re: gain from new headers on a Scuderia?
    I thought that only the regular F430 has pre-cats in the header, not the Scuderia
     
  3. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    #3 F430GT, Mar 30, 2010
    Scuderia and 16M have precats in the header as well, plus bulky secondary cats. Lots of restriction there.
     
  4. VividRacing

    VividRacing F1 Rookie

    Aug 23, 2005
    2,986
    Gilbert, AZ
    #4 VividRacing, Mar 30, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
    We just delivered a Kreisseig system to a member on the board. He can probably comment on the system. I will get pictures of the new scuderia system from Capristo pretty nice system.

    I don't understand why the stock exhaust valves don't open at full throttle at low rpm.
     
  5. 15hn

    15hn Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2005
    565
    Full Name:
    HN
    #5 15hn, Mar 30, 2010
    Never rely on videos. The videos I have heard sound nothing like the real deal. Also the novitec is pretty much mufflerless like the TT system. The Tubi sounds nothing like stock in real life.

    The Kreissieg seems to have the highest pitch. Its also the most expensive, too much for an exhaust imo.
     
  6. VividRacing

    VividRacing F1 Rookie

    Aug 23, 2005
    2,986
    Gilbert, AZ
    #6 VividRacing, Mar 30, 2010
  7. crcs

    crcs Formula 3
    BANNED

    Apr 18, 2009
    1,306
    Burlington Ontario
    #7 crcs, Mar 30, 2010
    Is anyone running a true straight pipe system on a Scud? No mufflers, no cats?
     
  8. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    #8 SSR, Mar 30, 2010
    I have KS exh in my scud and the quality is very nice also the sound..

    Very good product...
     
  9. Tifosi15

    Tifosi15 Formula 3

    Jul 15, 2009
    2,125
    Austin
    Full Name:
    Bryan
    #9 Tifosi15, Mar 30, 2010
    I thought the 355 had it's distinctive shout because of it's 5 valves per cylinder design, which was dropped with the 360...
     
  10. Tonza

    Tonza Karting

    May 31, 2006
    212
    Houston
    Full Name:
    Anthony
    #10 Tonza, Mar 30, 2010
    How much does the Kreisseig system cost and does it come with the remote valves? I have not found that a lot of folks in the usa know much about them.
     
  11. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    #11 F430GT, Mar 31, 2010
    My interest is on a system with better headers design (the factory design compromises performance drastically), low restriction cats, and a light muffler preferably with valves. I like the high pitch sound from some F430/360/355/348 systems, and I don't like the stock sound of the 360CS, 360CH, F430CH, Scuderia and 16M.
     
  12. 15hn

    15hn Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2005
    565
    Full Name:
    HN
    #12 15hn, Mar 31, 2010
    There is one 16M here in the UK that has no cats and straight through. It was too loud and lost its tone. We dont have precats in europe so i assume this has an affect on the sound.
     
  13. Integra

    Integra Karting

    Mar 24, 2010
    183
    Monaco
    Full Name:
    Federico
    #13 Integra, Mar 31, 2010
    Exactly,I'm pretty sure EU Scud and 16M have no precats..

    The KS exhaust is very well built but very heavy too,around 27kgs, 6 more than the stock one! (catback)
    Systems with valves are always heavier than without,and the problem with acceleration at low rpms will always be there I guess..
    Since i installed the Tubi with no valves i noticed a big improvement at low rpms due to the lack of the valves.
     
  14. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    #14 F430GT, Mar 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This Capristo system looks promising, based on the headers design, the sport cats, and the not overly complex muffler. It should save plenty of weight as well.

    Regarding the valve control, I'm going to develop a switch to have the exhaust full quiet 100% of the time or full loud 100% of the time whether it is this capristo or the standard system. That should let me pass sound at Laguna Seca.

    In addition to a system like this, there is the internal polishing of the carbon boxes to improve airflow and the BMC air filters.

    Once everything is installed, drop the car to my favorite ECU tuner to remap the fuel/air maps and take advantage of the new power. My guess is that the Scuderia should get close to 550 Hp (around 475 rwhp) on 91 octane fuel, and 570Hp on race fuel.
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  15. spyderman

    spyderman Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,622
    Toronto - Canada
    Full Name:
    Spyderman
    #15 spyderman, Mar 31, 2010

    Let us know how you make out. The system looks promising, Scuderia weight with 458 HP :)

    What does this retail for?
     
  16. tech4ferrari

    tech4ferrari Karting
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 22, 2010
    234
    Mt Airy N,C
    Full Name:
    casey johnson
    #16 tech4ferrari, Mar 31, 2010
    scuds and 16m's do not have the precats in the header...that is one reason they added air injection into the headers of the scud and 16m...i just put a set of fabspeed headers on a scud and had to disable the air injection...no check engine light yet?!?!? we will keep our fingers crossed...didn't really feel much of a gain in power either! they looked really good though! :)
     
  17. Nick

    Nick Formula Junior
    Sponsor Professional Ferrari Technician

    Oct 31, 2003
    506
    Full Name:
    Nick Scianna
    #17 Nick, Mar 31, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
    Hi F430GT, Capristo has a programmable remote control system for the valves with 3 modes that you program when the valves start to open & close etc. You then can select which mode you want while driving, you can order it as an option with the Capristo or you can just buy it & install it on pretty much any Ferrari or any valved exhaust system on the market.

    http://www.capristo-usa.com/capristo_021.htm
     
  18. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    #18 F430GT, Mar 31, 2010
    tech4ferrari, thanks for the clarification on the Scuderia headers and pre-cats. I think the stock headers are very restrictive (no equal length tubing), and so are the stock cats.

    At full throttle, the stock Scuderia opens the valves at 3,200 rpm. With light throttle the valves stay close up to 6,000 rpm where they open despite of the throttle position.

    I'm thinking on placing a button where the Euro cars have the L.C. button. This LC labeled button will control the mufflers, so if I press this button, I can have the valves fully closed at all RPM (passing sound at Laguna Seca), and depressing the button gets the system back to normal. I don't think a full 100% open valves setup is necessary, because there is no business of running this car below 3,200 rpm if one wants to run loud.

    For a flying Laguna Seca lap, you can press the button as you approach Turn 5 and press it again once approaching turn 7.
     
  19. rberg32

    rberg32 Karting

    Mar 14, 2007
    245
    #19 rberg32, Apr 1, 2010
    I just ordered new headers and cats (and BMC filters) from Jeremy at Fabspeed and they are going to put on the secondary air rail to the new headers.. also they are doing some ECU programming as well..

    I will be getting before and after dyno runs and post the results up as soon as the install is complete!

     
  20. psw

    psw Formula 3

    Nov 17, 2005
    1,885
    AUSTRALIA
    Full Name:
    Peter
    #20 psw, Apr 6, 2010
    Did you instal high flow cats as well and do a remap of the ECU or just the Fabspeed headers. Interesting you didn't really notice any seat of the pants gains, would appreciate your further comments as I am considering for my new Scuderia new headers, my existing high flow cats from my previous 430 & possible ECU remap.

    Very interested to hear all real world comments re possible hp gains.
     
  21. Alex@fabspeed

    Alex@fabspeed Formula Junior

    Dec 6, 2006
    401
    Fort Washington, PA
    #21 Alex@fabspeed, Apr 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Rick,

    We just finished fabricating the air-injection rails on Fabspeed Headers for your 09 Scuderia : ) The Headers and Cats are all packaged up and waiting for FedEx to pick-up!

    I figured I would take some pictures to share with everybody. Here are a couple pictures of the Fabspeed Scuderia/16M Headers with Air Injection Lines, and Fabspeed Scuderia/16M 200 Cell Tri-metallic HJS Cats.

    If anybody has any questions regarding the Fabspeed products for your Scuderia/16M contact me directly and I would be more than happy to help you out!

    [email protected]
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  22. rberg32

    rberg32 Karting

    Mar 14, 2007
    245
    #22 rberg32, Apr 6, 2010
    Jeremy, those look amazing!! It's a damn shame they can't be see after the install!!

    I will make sure to post all my results and pix of the install!!

     
  23. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    #23 SSR, Apr 6, 2010
    What are the air injection rails for ?
     
  24. Alex@fabspeed

    Alex@fabspeed Formula Junior

    Dec 6, 2006
    401
    Fort Washington, PA
    #24 Alex@fabspeed, Apr 6, 2010
    The Scuderia and 16M have Air injection system on the stock headers just like the F360 and F355 cars. Secondary Air Injection is an emissions system that pumps clean air into the exhaust on startup.
    Fabspeed installs the rails on our headers just like factory so you do not need to disable system and worry about CEL issues.
     
  25. herragge

    herragge Karting

    Sep 15, 2007
    62
    Alberta
    #25 herragge, Apr 7, 2010
    I did not know this! Thanks for the heads up. No one likes CEL.
     
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