expansion tank bone dry

guys i had sent my CS for a major a month back and i just happened to check my radiator expansion tank for the coolant level and it was bone dry....there is no leak....the temp was always within 80-100 deg Celsius (180-210F)..and the warning light stating the engine has overheated NEVER came on....
..so i did not suspect that the coolant was low and furthermore it just came out of a major! i just happened to check the level and it was bone ****ing dry....

i guess the guys at the dealership i sent it to overlooked topping up the coolant...i'll call them on monday and give them a shelling.....anyway my question is...:

1) can i just top the coolant level ? (what is the capacity in litres of coolant/water needed for the entire radiator system from empty?)
2) would the system need to be bled ?
3) would there be any damage to the cooling system or the engine since the tank is empty? this doesn't mean the entire piping system is empty right, if not the engine would have overheated? (i'm just being paranoid and need someone to tell me everything is ok!)

thanks guys.

 

The coolant level is likely in the hose up to the tank and not visible in the tank. I would top off the coolant, use phosphate free coolant, BMW coolant works well.

 

1) Coolant tank topped off is roughly 1liter on the 360/f430. It is very possible that air in the system was not fully bleed out. Usually takes a few warm up and cool down cycles of driving. I would be concerned if it takes more than a liter or 2. The capacity of the whole system I believe is about 15 liters to fill when we use an "airlift" to flush and fill the system.

2) In a perfect world the system is a circulating system so by design the air should end up in the tank at the highest pint. The large hose on the bottom of the tank is the supply/feed and the 2 small lines into the back of the tank are the return. This is also why the tank is placed high in the engine compartment for the air to rise. IMOP if you feel the level is low in the engine by adding an excess amount of coolant. I would return it to the repair shop for a full evaluate and possible leak check due to their recent servicing. They are only human and can make mistakes which could be costly. And a better piece of mind for you !

3. I would assume not unless the engine level was very low. No damage if the reservoir needs to be topped off. Top it off and monitor the level. make sure the reservoir is cool when releasing the cap. The temp gauge is not always 100% accurate as air pockets in the system can effect flow as the air will compress against the coolant and create a blockage and a false reading.

David

 

Probably air if the coolant has just been replaced but I'd also want to be sure it's not going into the gearbox via a transmission heat exchanger leak?


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I'm sure he hopes not but that was my thought also.
Alan

 

I would expect that there would be issues with shifting with this..
But.. I would still fill it and check for significant oil film on the surface of the coolant once its visible. If REALLY worried then I'd check the gearbox oil dipstick.

 

DO NOT DRIVE THE CAR! A friend had exactly the same symptoms, and it was a leaking heat exchanger. Just like you, he found the expansion tank bone dry, but with no visible leaks. He topped off the coolant and continued to drive the car, and killed his transmission.

Have the transmission fluid checked immediately for coolant contamination. Hopefully it's nothing more than your tech not filling the cooling system and bleeding it properly. But if it's a failed heat exchanger, you'll be glad you checked. If you wait until you experience difficulty shifting, it will be too late.

 

There is not

I am just finishing the repair of a 360 always dealer serviced. With the scale and corrosion present we have even needed to replace the aluminum coolant pipes. In addition so far I have replaced heat exchanger, water pump, many hoses, one radiator etc. I am still hoping to save the gear box. It worked fine despite it being filled with functional equivalent of cow dung. I had to get it very hot and partially scoop the oil out. Only symptom was no coolant in tank. Manual trans car. Shifted fine.

Once some of the gunk and scale was washed out it leaked faster than I could pour coolant in.


Coolant flush...every year.....every car. I don't care if it is sitting in the garage or driven daily.

 

Amen to that.

OP - In this situation I would drop the coolant and gearbox oil and check for cross contamination. If you're lucky the servicing dealer simply buggered up the bleeding of the coolant....

 

I stand corrected. I'm thinking a warning sticky on the top of the section.. if it does this.. then do not drive it.

Though, if you added coolant to the tank to the proper fill height.. wouldn't there be obvious oil on the top of the water? And.. if you took more than a liter to fill it.. wouldn't that suggest a leak? If there is a breakdown of the intercooler at that point, a liter of coolant would be moot.. no?

I wouldn't have any problem checking things in the garage.. I'm just thinking if someone lived a long distance away from their service center, or didn't have the mechanical know-how to go beyond filling it sufficiently. Esp. to additionally rule out that it simply was air bubbles versus an intercooler leak. It would suck IMHO to spend another few hundred dollars with new fluids.. just for air bubbles in the system working out.

 

Maybe, but it's a risk/reward type issue. If you guess wrong, your transmission could be toast. If you find it's only a bleed, not properly filled after service issue, you're out some time and money, but not your transmission. And the lunkheads who serviced the car can or should be on the hook for your troubles, as it's their fault. But if you guess wrong and lose your transmission, it's all on you. Also, I would think someone lacking in mech skills shouldn't be trying to diagnose this on his own, just to try to save a dealer visit. I'm not sure you would see oil on top of the coolant. Try mixing some coolant and transmission oil in a glass jar, shake it up, heat it, and see what it looks like.

 

The oil and water do not always mix in like amounts. The car I just described had almost no detectable oil in the coolant. Coolant was getting into the gear oil in large quantities but the reverse was not true. I have seen others with large amounts of oil in the cooling system but that just does not always happen.

 

Interesting. Thank you!

 

Finding the correct coolant substitute for Glycoshell (hard to get in some places) isn't easy. You can't be guided by color, formulations for the "same" stuff may be different Europe for example, at least one company markets the exact same coolant with two different colors, Glycoshell concentrate claims to be different from regular Glycoshell, etc. etc. etc.

Put me in the camp which believes that using a premium long life coolant with the proper inhibitor package (even if it stays in the car for several years) is more important than frequent flushes and refills with a coolant which isn't optimum for the requirements of our mostly aluminum engine and cooling systems. However, don't ask me to pay for your transmission rebuild if I'm wrong.

Ferrari says leave the Glycolshell in there forever; I don't. But, if frequent changes were the key to eliminating transmission heat exchanger changes I find it odd that Ferrari doesn't mention it. Yearly changes alone with whatever "universal" coolant Auto Zone has on sale that week may eliminate heat exchanger failures, but who's going to come up with evidence; I mean real evidence?

 

Isn't the original for life Glycolshell coolant green whereas the replacement is blue (or could be vice versa)?
Alan

 

Hmm, lets see. Maintenance level we know doesn't work vs incorrect maintenance using the wrong materials. Seems to me there are other choices.

Please forgive me for ignoring the input.

 

+1. Let's remember some basics. Engines generate power. Some of that is used to move the car. Some goes out as heat in the exhaust. The rest needs to be removed via a cooling system or else the engine will overheat. Cooling systems work by transferring the heat energy out of the car via interaction with the cooling liquid. Contrary to popular belief, plain water works better at heat transfer than a water+antifreeze combination. The problem with plain water is that chemically, it contains oxygen, and oxygen can combine with metals to form corrosion.

Water also freezes at relatively high temperatures; high enough that normally encountered environmental conditions in North America and Europe could cause plain water to freeze. So you can't just run plain water. The additive of choice has been ethylene glycol. A 50/50 mix will depress the freezing point sufficiently that a frozen cooling system usually isn't a problem.

But ethylene glycol doesn't prevent corrosion. For that, various corrosion inhibitors are added. Which ones depend on the metals in the engine and cooling system. Most antifreezes have phosphate and silicate inhibitors in them. They work by forming a chemical barrier to protect the metal in the cooling system from oxidation. Over time, because of heat cycles, oxygen and other minerals in the "water", the inhibitors become depleted.

Aluminum, of course, has different chemical properties compared to steel. Corrosion inhibitors typically are different as a result. The most common inhibitors for this application are carboxylates and organic acids. They work principally by chemically reacting at the metal corrosion sites, rather than forming a barrier. Carboxylates are often needed also if you use hard water, as phosphates can interact with the minerals to form scales. Over time, because of heat cycles, oxygen and these chemical reactions, carboxylates are depleted, too.

So, there is no such thing as leaving any coolant in there "forever". There are variables to how fast the inhibitors give themselves up to chemical reactions, such as the amount of other minerals in the water (which you can minimize by using distilled water), the amount of air in the system, heat and other factors. But eventually, they all get used up, and the metals in your radiator and heat exchanger are then on their own. And because the inhibitors themselves are not perfect, some corrosion is inevitable even with fresh inhibitors.

Almost any good antifreeze of the proper type will last at least a year on service. They "might" and often do last longer, but given the cost of repairs, it's much better to change out the coolant every year. With the right type, of course. Different manufacturers have their own formulas and standards for quality control, but if you use a good brand of the right type, you will minimize the risk of corrosion and maximize repair or replacement intervals of the parts subject to corrosion in the cooling system.

As for why Ferrari doesn't mention the need to protect against heat exchanger failures, why would they? They probably don't have enough warranty experience with failures (since most warranties time out long before poor cooling system maintenance procedures manifest themselves), and I can't see any manufacturer basically admitting a design weakness.

And nobody is advocating changing out the coolant with the wrong type every year because it may be hard to find the exact Glycoshell brand. But I see no reason you can't use another brand so long as it's the right type. Putting the wrong type into the car may be worse than using plain water. As for evidence, I don't need or want to experiment on my own car by leaving the same coolant in the car year after year. The chemistry behind the need for the inhibitors is all I need to know.

 

So.....what in your opinion is the best coolant type for a 360. Glycol based with carboxylite/OAT inhibitors?
Over here OAT coolant is typically pink and not compatible with glycol based coolants....


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This is my recommendation as well.

What eva!

In my opinion, Shell products are recommended because they are paying for the privilege. I have other lubricants that I have experience with that I use. Typically I use name brand coolant (green). I've never had a problem. The real reason to change both coolant and oils at least annually is to detect the problem if a leak occurs before expensive damage is done.

 

X1000.

 

Since I'm not the original owner, I replaced my exchanger when having some other work up top done as a preventative measure last year. Of course regular coolant changes are on the schedule now too.

 

thank you everyone for replying and hope everyone is having a brilliant world cup!.....i initially had no idea what a heat exchanger was!! coming from a 348, i still have a learning curve with the more modern machine....

so i gather the coolant is cooling more than just the engine right? (i'll do some reading up on this later after the opening match!)

anyway back to my car, i filled the tank with around 1.5-1.6 litres of coolant and I drove the car around constantly monitoring the temp......still hovered around 80 deg C at speed and around 90-98 deg C (never hit 100) at long standstills.......

came back and the tank was where i left it earlier (around 4cm from the top of the filler neck)....and the coolant looks very very clean (got the popular BMW blue stuff...highly recommended here and also by the 348 guys...the original stuff was green from Shell i think).......should i still drain the gearbox oil and check ?

thanks everyone once again......

 

Yup, the coolant heats the gearbox oil when it’s cold and cools it when it gets hot.

My inclination is that it was never filled properly and/or that there was an air lock when it was filled which subsequently relieved itself, causing the level to drop.

That said, I’d recommend that you cheek your gearbox level. I can get the dip-stick on mine out from the top but I have an aftermarket rear ‘box. You may have to remove the rear wheel and gravel guard to get to yours but it’s only a few minutes work.

Well spotted by the way.

 

but would it not be visible in the expansion tank once the car has completely cooled down and been stationary for many hours? some sort of oil film in the expansion tank?
i am actually clueless....please advise......

i will definitely check the dipstick....if there is a cross contamination of coolant in the gearbox, what will the symptoms be like? can this be seen on the dipstick vs draining all the gearbox oil out?
thanks guys

 

In my experience you definitely will see and feel oil contamination in the coolant tank if it is present. If it’s there (even if you can’t see it) you’ll feel it if you simply pinch some coolant between your fingers and rub.