Exspensive Weekend

George

I am not talking about people who have cars that are what they are and clearly described by their owners as exactly what they are and enjoyed by their owners in what ever way they want to. I am talking about people who secretly hot rod their cars, use replica chassis, build entire replica cars failing to mention that fact and go out and Vintage racing Posing as something they are not. I am talking about drivers who are so blinded by the red mist that they are a hazard to innocents. I am talking about Vintage Races that are so elitist and self delusional about their purity that it is laughable.

I neither put you in that class nor believe that you personally think any of the above is a good thing.

The Historic Targa Florio is not a race. It is a tour on public roads under Police Supervision. P 4/5 was invited. Of course it ran as an exhibition only. The idea that any of my cars are not fully disclosed is absurd. P4/5 was invited to The Bahrain GP to gallivant around on the F1 course. Trust me I realize that that doesn't make me an F1 Driver even if I did smoke Lewis who was gallivanting around in a Lambo.

Cheers

 

Well, I'll bet that a fair number of old race cars already have replacement body panels. So, they're no longer "originals" anyway. And, if the original chassis and drivetrain are in place, isn't THAT what everyone's so "concerned" about? I can certainly understand the "preserve history" argument, too, but we can take it too far. Where do you draw the line? The air in the tires? The gas in the tank? The oil in the sump? The tires? The safety equipment?

For the most part, all the owners that I have been on track with, are sympathetic to the history aspect. Indeed, originality makes their cars worth even more. But, many of these older cars have experienced damage and engine blow ups and swaps. For years, some of these cars were just ignored or chopped up. They were basically scrap. The very fact that they've become so desirable could certainly have been foretold, but still people often abused them for a long time before they ended up in the current owner's hands.

CW

 

I've driven around CERAM at 200mph and quite enjoyed it and I currently hold the Sicily Land Speed Record. I have no problem with anyone doing what ever they want so long as it's legal and doesn't endanger innocents.

I also understand that I'm not the guy in the middle nor the guy to my left and that being lucky enough to be able to own what I own gives me the responsibility to share what I own, pass it along to other who will, but to also attempt to keep it safe for future generations.

Finally it may not seem like much to you but I'm not sure that any else existent has ever driven the night stage of the "Giro di Sicilia" in a P 3/4 (Fully Disclosed) or driven a MK-IV in the snow.
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My point was as to their value in the interim. I expect that if it weren't for their interim utility a lot of the earlier cars would have been lost.

 

Napolis,

First, you always do things with your cars that I admire and think are interesting and fun, and I look forward to the day we meet in person and can speak more about your experiences. Hopefully, I'll have a few that are equally entertaining to share. I think it's great that you've done the things with the cars you have. Keep on doing them. By all means. Of course, if an accident were to happen, does it matter if it's on CERAM due to a mechanical failure, oil on the hill climb at Goodwood or because someone rubbed fenders with you at the Le Mans Classics? The end result is the same, isn't it?

And, I agree that as long as it's legal and doesn't endanger innocents, it's all good with me, too.

Perhaps we disagree over how far we'll go to keep our toys/assets safe for future generations, but we all have an economic incentive to do so. They're worth a lot of money. Now, there certainly are people out there who can wad up a GTO and not care or miss it. And, I would agree that it would be a shame to have that happen. But, it's legal and it doesn't endanger innocents.

CW

 

Because they are objects of historical significance. People CAN legally do whatever they please. But, if I owned a Claude Monet, I wouldn't hang it in direct sunlight above a hot fireplace. If I owned an original Roman dagger, I wouldn't use it to cut my steak. If I owned a unique vintage stamp, I wouldn't use it to post a letter. And if I owned a 250 TDF, I wouldn't drive it pedal to the metal around a track within feet of other such cars.

 

If I owned a Claude Monet, I wouldn't hang it in direct sunlight above a hot fireplace. If I owned an original Roman dagger, I wouldn't use it to cut my steak. If I owned a unique vintage stamp, I wouldn't use it to post a letter. And if I owned a 250 TDF, I WOULD drive it pedal to the metal around a track within feet of other such cars!

 

Hey

I look forward to meeting you as well. Here's the small difference. CERAM is a high speed test track with huge banking specially designed for high speed testing. The Mulsanne is a public highway (Of course closed for the race). Another big difference is that P 4/5 is a modern car that is much better engineered and has full FIA roll cage vs my Vintage Cars. If P 4/5 goes on it's roof it will deflect less than 1/2 an inch. When I go up the Hill I go with great caution at 5/10ths realizing it's muddy/oily/has no run off/ and a number of people standing way too close to avoid if things go wrong.

Seeing a head in a crash helmet unattached to a body on the Hill is not something you soon forget.

Best!

 

Most of these cars became pieces of history ( significant pieces at least ) long after they werent original anymore. As people have said time and again, nobody cared about a GTO in 1970's which by then, chances that its body had been fixed by the local Joe are high. What are the chances that the shop that will repair these TDFs will be repairing original body parts ? Not high..

I can understand not racing a car that was kept as a timewrap because it is more a museum piece than a car...but those cars have had their bodies beaten by so many different artisants that IMO as long as the shop repairing them are competent and follow whatever rules/procedures that Ferrari or Scaglietti used back then that i dont see the problem.

 

Hey, it's you're right not to and to do anything legal with what you own. And, I won't beat you up over it, either. Great country.

CW

 

Personal safety is a separate, but good, issue from the preservation of the car. However, I do agree. I still can't get the image of a driver burning to a crisp strapped in their car while unconscious out of my mind. Never will. It could happen to me, of course, but we've taken all the safety precautions we can. And, if I wasn't willing to accept the consequence, then I wouldn't do it.

CW

 

Andrew, I agree to some extent. But I think body panels are one thing - a bent frame or destroyed engine is another.

 

Well, without actually seeing how hard the two cars in question hit, I can't argue definitively, but I'd say that while the damage wasn't "light" is was purely "cosmetic". So, problem solved!

CW

 

I wrote a long reply but the web zapped it I guess. Suffice it to say that those running in vintage events with hot rods and fakes are cheaters and frauds that have no business in gentlemens sports and hobbies. Many events are well scrutinized and hold the participation to a fairly high standards, and these are events that I embrace. There are certainly many for which the same can not be said both in the US and overseas, and it in these where legitimate vintage enthusiasts tangle with as you would say poseurs. This is unfortunate and hopefully those wishing to run legitimate vintage cars will lean on organizers to demand a higher standard. Until then we will just see more sad photos like the subject of this thread. Cheers, George

 

I fully concur.

CW

 

What gets my goat is not so much the Replica's (which we can discuss openly or not) or the Original's but the Hotrodders. Why do people take a perfectly acceptable 250 SWB road car and replace just about everything to make more power and lower the weight just to go that bit faster. Because for some the simple point is to win at all costs, then surely they miss the point of historic racing ?? And could they be better off in other forms of racing ?? All this does is wreck a decent car so the owner can make their ego just that bit better, it doesnt worry me so much if someone buys a replica chassis, loads it with bits and goes racing because while it is fraud to claim originality it doesnt destroy anything, it doesnt alter anything.

Just my .02c

 

I just rewatched this fast Le Mans lap by (I think) Tony Dron in a 246S:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h4eJW6oUVHY
It just illustrates that a racing car doesn't convey it's full meaning unless absolutely FLAT OUT

 

To some extent, alterations are made to improve the safety and reliability of these cars. For example, wheel hubs. Older designs were often fab'd from thin tube metals. They're far more subject to catastrophic failures due to stress fractures. So, some owners replace them with parts that are better designed and made from higher quality materials. The original parts are not lost, and, ironically, if there is damage, the original part is safe and sound, because they were tossed (gently) into the spares bin.

Regarding reliability, have you ever spent $10K to get your cars to the track for a weekend and found that they won't run due to a whatzit that was made in 1965 and isn't easily found? It's a serious waste of money and frustrating. For example, it's pretty common to see MSD boxes replacing the Magnetti Marellis. The MM's aren't available, and even if they are, the MSD's function more reliably. So, what happens if the wiring loom should be replaced? They're known to have issues over time, too.

In other cases, some parts simply are no longer available. So, replacements have to be fab'd up. When they're fab'd better quality materials are spec'd.

In even other instances, modern technologies (such as tires) increase the stresses on the cars. Old tires just aren't available any longer. So, the upgrades can handle the increased stress levels, while the original parts sit in the bins.

LOTS of reasons, but for the most part, the cars are not "wrecked" and can easily be put back to original spec.

CW

 

Really, though, you have to admit: what a LOVELY sound! I would never want it silenced.

And, while I saw a talented driver (ex-BTC ace), I didn't see any "oh sh*t" moments. Completely composed. Now, that motor's wound up, but if the car's maintained properly, that shouldn't be a problem. OTOH, an off at that speed in TESTING or practice at track days would likely produce the same results as an off in a race.

CW

 

Because some owners do not understand that I did not come to watch them, but to see the cars. You see the cars continual survival into the future is VERY important to many enthusiasts.

Now I'm not saying a persons life is less important, but these old historic cars are very, very, very important, right up their with famous old paintings.

Now some rich or otherwise owners just feel that because they are lucky to own one of these cars they can do whatever they like ... even if that involves continually crashing the fnck out of it on a race track. Now sorry that is just not fair and down right selfish.

Once they have used the car up it is gone, gone forever.

Again you CAN race the fnck out of these cars without swapping paint ... but some don't understand this.
Pete
ps: When I first got involved with classic/historic racing (in NZ) the quality of the cars that were exercised on the track was wonderful (but ofcourse not as extensive as in Europe and the US). Then people who are not really car enthusiasts got involved. They got involved because it became the latest way to demonstrate wealth, or to belong to the IN crowd. What happened then was people started taking it to seriously, because ofcourse they do not simply just love the car like the real enthusiast, they want to demonstrate that they are indeed Ascari reincarnated.

Over the years I watched many never before bent classic cars get badly bent ... and I also watched the grids shrink, until all that was left was a few Lotus Cortinas and Alfas (people even started buying the lowest cost entry car so they would not give a flying fnck if they destroyed it). All the really exotic stuff was now confined to show rooms, or road events.

Non-enthusiasts caused this, because they really don't get it. Unfortunately it only takes a couple to be involved to ruin it for all. All you need to be involved is MONEY ... and that does not mean you are really a car guy .

I can assure you will I will never race my Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV once my very long restoration is finished. But I will track it very, very hard when I have the track nearly to myself ... but I'm not interested in racing against Mr Ego. And I most definitely would never race a 8c2900B or 250LM if I won Lotto and was able to purchase my dream car ... because I could not afford to fix it and would be too upset even after I punched out the other driver involved.

 

Can the mods fix the spelling of the thread title, it's driving me nuts.

Thanks!

 

Pete,

Believe me, I have no illusions: nobody's there to see me. So, the question is whether you would rather see a car parked in the paddock or on a grass lawn, puttering around like it's being driven by a Grandmother, or seeing and hearing one wailing around a track at full song a la the 246S video? And, again, these comments seem to be suggesting that just the mere fact of putting it on the track is the equivalent of their destruction. Not so. Not by a long shot. Now, can anyone tell me how many vintage Ferraris have been "written off" in the past, say, 10 years of vintage and Historic racing? I'll bet it's not many, if any at all even.

I'm okay with comparing these cars to priceless and important works of art. But, did Van Gogh have any idea they'd become what they are today? he traded them away for basic necessities. So, the artist himself thought little of them. They were currency, and another one could always be painted. Only YEARS after his death did they become something of "extreme" value. And, structures burn down, too, and paintings are lost. Moreover, what's to prevent some nut from cutting up the Mona Lisa? Didn't someone attempt it, btw? It's regrettable, BUT, the only true way to protect them is if they're locked away in some fireproof vault where nobody will ever see them. So, some risk is perfectly acceptable.

"Continually crashing the fnck out of it"? Really? I've NEVER seen repeated and continued unpunished driving like that. Can you name me one instance where an owner continually crashed the fnck out of a classic Ferrari? Again, I think that's a bit of hyperbole. But, what's "fair" and "selfish" is interesting to discuss. So, you're suggesting that it would be more "fair" for someone who has no pecuniary interest in MY asset to tell me how to use it? And, I'm being "selfish" if I bring it out to a track where people can see, hear and enjoy it? Interesting perspective.

So, once we've "used up" the car, it's gone forever. You mean like it up and vanishes in a poof and all we have left is a pile of dust? I had no idea that damage can't be fixed. If you're referring to the history of the car "vanishing", well, it's still the same car. It might have a new windscreen or headlight or quarter panel, but the car is still the car.

And, you may well be right that some don't get it. But, many do understand that we're just the temporary owners, and if Ferrari was so concerned about the histories of their cars, then why even offer the Historic Challenge or Corsa Cliente at all? And, you may also again be correct that it's the non-enthusiasts that have been bashing up their cars. But, if BryanP (or Admiral Phillips) wanted to race his car in SVRA, HSR or the Historic Challenge, would you really have much, if any, of an objection? So, really, you're just objecting to yahoos going out on track. I fully agree on this. And, if they drive like a horse's you-know-what, then their ticket should get pulled. Or, are you saying that guys like Tony Dron shouldn't be driving that 246S like he was? You know, it's REALLY too bad that Phil Hill has passed on. I'd love to have his perspective on this issue, too.

And, again, you're absolutely free to do as you wish with your car. But, the point is you can't tell someone not to do with their car/assets as they wish as long as it's not illegal. Now, it may be that ALL Ferraris are one day banned from racing because there's too much "history". But, you've just made the world a duller place, I think.

CW

 

That's sort of an ends justify the means argument. If I try to kill someone, but, unbeknownst to me, my gun isn't loaded, that's still attempted murder.

 

Well, I am just replying (possibly a bit tongue-in-cheek) to your post (No. 162), which seemed to say that you were alright with minor body damage as long as it didn't damage the frame or the motor. Did I interpret it incorrectly?

However, you can't have it both ways.

CW

 

Does the Breadvan count? I don't suppose it's any the worse for wear, but Matthew certainly provided his auto body repair shop of choice enough business to retire upon. His exploits with the car probably fall outside the context of this discussion and I certainly don't intend to invalidate your opinion. It is a fact, however, that the Breadvan went through a series of incidents, which both Matthew and the 'van survived. For my part, I never had an incident with any of my cars.