Thank you, sir. I stand corrected. I couldn't think of one that I'm aware of. I'm mostly familiar with Monte Shalett's ownership period of 2819GT. However, the car seems to be in good condition. Perhaps not the original panelwork, but the new nose certainly doesn't seem to detract from the overall desirability or value of the car, does it? And, of course, back during the late 1960's is when Ettinger apparently owned it. At the time, the car was probably just a strange old car that Dick Merritt had paid only $2,800 for (still, a princely sum at the time, I'm sure). Anyway, certainly now looking back on some of the owners and drivers, it has a great history. So, does the fact that the panels got a bit crunched truly take much away from it? Thanks, again. CW
Good question. In my opinion, these mishaps would have a bigger effect on the value of a street machine than they would on that of a race car since war wounds seem to be part of their provenance. I'd like to hear Ed Niles' thoughts on this. As I recall, he bought a Tour de France berlinetta that had been rolled by Peter Helm for no particular reason. I wonder if that had a substantial effect on the subsequent value of the car.
The yellow 250LM was continually crashed by it's uncaring owner. Absolutely not, I am only here discussing the owners that don't care about their car and race like idiots. I am first and foremost very much a believer in continuous history, but this modern history ONLY detracts from the car because it adds nothing to creating the history that is Ferrari. None what-so-ever, would love to see it myself. True. Tony Dron was, as I've said many times already, just driving the snot out of the car ... again you do not have to hit another car to "be a racing driver". Agree ... I'm for banning the owners that "don't understand" Here is another example: Many years ago I raced my little Alfa Sud and caught up to a Ferrari 308GTB. Now this person was slower than I through the corners but would pull away just enough to require me to play Michael Schumacher into a corner to pass him ... did I make the pass? ... NO!. I tried as hard as I could instead to find a safe way pass, but the race finished before I could. I had fun, the guy in the Ferrari had fun and we all went home with straight cars. He beat me, yes ... but who cares, I know who was quicker . Pete ps: later on I modified the cr@p out of that little Sud and lost the concept of classic racing ... why?, because I want to win and ruined the car in the process. Classic racing should be about racing the cars AS THEY WERE (but ofcourse perfectly maintained as they were) ... not making them faster, etc. I left classic racing and raced a club car instead ... and yes, if there was half a gap I stuck my car firmly in their and made the pass, because I was racing to win in a race car that I built and had no history at all!! .
From the time I was very young, I occasionally went through car museums with my Dad and would see all the really old brass cars. I recall men saying how fragile they were, how parts were not available, how even starting one up could just destroy what was left. They just sat and rotted and collected dust while all the opinion makers all sat on thier a$$. The really old timers still believed they would go, but thier offspring stood their ground. In 1983 Interstate Batteries pulled some old antique car out of moth balls and drove it over 25,000 miles around the country. IIRC it was a 1908 Buick. All these claims the car wouldnt make it to the next town, it would blow up, the wheels would fall off, etc., etc., they were all baseless. In fact the car did so well it amazed even the guys who drove it. And suddenly men began dusting off other old antiques and dragging them out in the sun. Today there are annual antique car runs all over the free world where guys run those old car for 100's, 1000's, and in a few cases, around the world. I guess I do change my opinion with a the wind a little bit. I recognise that old cars, old boats, old airplanes, old train locomotives are historic artifacts and do need to be preserved and respected. But they also need to be used and displayed as they were in the era they represent, or, just like those old brass cars, they are just objects no one remembers. A 250 Ferrari being putted through town or on some parade route is great, nice to see them out and in presentable condition. But I am afraid some of the opinions expressed here are just kind of loony. Today we are seeing yet another generation trying to be overly protective of much more modern machines than antique cars. You go to muscle car meets and so many are babying thier cars around, its really kind of pathetic. Dont want to smoke the tires, might break something..... And then some go even further, and suggest that what a man owns is not his free choice to how he uses it? I'm very sorry, but we have Ferrari's only because Enzo Ferrari was a Capitalist who could freely operate within a Capitalist environment. Socialist and Communistic countries do not, have not, and never will produce anything romantic, and certainly not anything approaching the level of a Ferrari, a Spits or a Donzi. You get VW Beetles's, Tata Nano's, and Skodas instead. I dont like to see these machines getting injured anymore than anyone else, and I do not believe its just a bunch of rich snobs out trying to wreck them..thats a very ludicrous accusation IMO. But if I have to choose between regulating it, as some of you are almost suggesting, or letting the machines run as thier owners see fit, I choose the latter. A P-38 Lightening is a very rare bird, much more expensive and rarer than most Ferrari models. IIRC there are only 5 known to be in flyable condition worldwide. We have a choice to make each time one of those aircraft rolls out to end of the runway to run up her engines. Risk everything, or taxi back and put her back in the hangar. If they lose an engine on takeoff its probably not going to end well, and could very likely be deadly. If the gear dont come down and it lands with the gear up, its going to do a absolutely extreme amount of damage. If you think fixing some aluminum skin on an old Ferrari is a big deal, you should look at a twin engine airplane after it bellies in and folds the props back while wrecking a pair of Allison V-12's. Better hope it dont catch a wingtip and cartwheels. So I say, raise a glass and toast those brave souls who accelerate out of the pits in a vintage Ferrari, who accelerate down the runway in a rare war machine, who drag those pre-1916 brass cars out of the barn and pull the crank, and those who take old Cristcraft's out of the slip and push the throttles forward. Be glad you live in an age where they exist, and where, at least for the time being, we legally can. Tomorrow they may be all removed from private hands and put back in museums to be quieted for all eternity. I think Enzo would like hearing his cars screetching around corners, ripping the canvas and banging up sheetmetal a hell of a lot more than seeing them putt around in a parade. Just the same as my Dad gets all weepyeyed seeing an old Warbird pull her wheels up in the wells.
But imagine the different kind of tears he would get when some egotistical Major Bong wannabee does a few low level loops and plows his P-38 into the ground in a gigantic fireball.
Exactly. One of the few, the other is Jim and I think Cornerswell, that understand what "we" are saying. It is not the use, or even racing the old cars we have a problem with, it is the hotting up and racing TOO hard, taking unnecessary risks that I object too. Why somebody wants to make a (for example) 250 GTO lap faster nowadays is quite beyond me ... who the fnck cares, it is an old car! Throw the stop watch away man!! Get rid of the fools and racing your old car is perfectly safe, especially with a grid full of REAL old car enthusiasts that you know don't want to harm their car anymore than you do ... but absolutely do want to give her a good ol' thrash . Pete ps: An example of this idiocy is the Jaguar E-Type lightweights that now have engines tuned by Cosworth that are pulling miles more revs and power than they ever used to ... again who cares. Another is the old shock absorbers hiding inside mega expensive modern components to shave off 0.5 a second per lap ... give me a break, go get a life!
I agree with you but how unbelievable is it that a high buck pursuit attracts a bunch of over competitive type - A guys?
Good point, what is the solution? I think all these vehicles need to be thoroughly checked before the start of the season, with the goal of sending people away that have made non-period modifications. This might make the owners understand that we just want them to have fun , and we do NOT care who wins. Ofcourse cheats are very cunning ... Pete
Tech at each event is an opportunity to go over each and every car. And, that's the practice. However, when it comes modifications and upgrades, either we take a hard line, or we don't. Right now, the line is all over the place. However, that's by necessity to some extent (safety, can't get replacements for old parts, etc.). And, to turn away cars at tech will only serve to piss off owners and get them not to return. Not a great way to get the grid size up. And, for the most part, these are small grids with about 10 cars in the Disc and 10 in the Drum class in the US Historic Challenge. When we turn cars away, we further reduce the relevance and efficacy of the Series. So, it's certainly a balancing act. But, I do understand and hate to see the wanton destruction of anything. Unless it's a Yugo. CW
Any landing is a good one if you walk away, they are only machines and can be rebuilt given the budget, no point in gathering rust and mildew.
There are some very good points raised here; certainly the one where E-Types, Mustangs and Cobra's race around with way more power than they had originally, and this totally defies the purpose. If you want to be competitive at all cost, race something modern, or at least something that is available in abundance. The footage of the LM crashing sends shivers down my spine. What happened there? This competitiveness has been going on long. Back in the eighties someo German gentleman offered DM 80.000 for the set of carbs of a 250mm (which were IN the car) to put them on his, IIRC, SWB. That's a lot of dough for admittedly a gorgeous set of carbs, but that was the price he was willing to pay gladly to shave some time off. After reading the comments, I am slowly shifitng towards a somewhat milder opinion, and yes, maybe people who willingly jeopardize someone else's beautiful old machinery should be turned away?
Hi How about a simple 2 race ban for anyone involved in an accident, whether at fault or not, surely that would encourage everyone to simply watch what everyone else is doing, and keep it clean. It would have to be done with NO exceptions............... ?? Tim
Whatever happened to the 13/13 rule? You bend metal (even if it's only your car) you get 13 months off to think about it. I don't remember what the other 13 was for...
13/13 rule is: If your involved in an incident that damages a car and are deemed partly responsible by the race stewards, you get a 13 month probation. If during that 13 months you are involved in another incident, you get a 13 month suspension.
General Racing (runs Monterey Historics, Cornado, Wine Countrry, etc.) any incident where your car or another is dented you are out of the event and any other GR event for a year. I imagine that means the same event the foollowing year (thirteen monthes). I spun once, but no contact. George
