F1 2024 - News/Regulation change/Developments | Page 15 | FerrariChat

F1 2024 - News/Regulation change/Developments

Discussion in 'F1' started by jgonzalesm6, Dec 9, 2023.

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  1. itschris

    itschris Formula 3

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    But if they were to start dominating again... their wing would be banned within a race weekend.
     
  2. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    So the FIA said that they're not going to get involved in the flexing wing controversy right now given the time of the season in F1.

    1) It's too late to make any recommendations.

    2) The budget cap comes into mind.

    3) Even IF the FIA clamped down on the fexing wing controversy, it won't be till Abu Dhabi to go into effect.....which is already too late.
     
  3. LittleTino

    LittleTino Formula 3
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    I thought these videos showed the difference in wing flex well.

     
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  4. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    "There is not enough time to fix your cheating car within the budget cap"

    That's an interesting reason to cop out of doing their job. Every team might as well bring an illegal car and use "we don't have time or budget to fix it, as per the FIA".
     
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  5. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Interesting assessment of the 'wing' issue and balance issues most top teams are dealing with off and on this season.

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/from-red-bulls-monster-to-ferraris-high-speed-bouncing-whats-behind-f1s-car-balance-problems/10652642/

    From Red Bull’s ‘monster’ to Ferrari’s high-speed bouncing: What’s behind F1’s car balance problems?
    F1 teams are increasingly wrestling with car balance problems, as the limits of the current ground effect cars bite
    Jonathan Noble Franco Nugnes Sep 9, 2024, 1:01 PM
    Upd: Sep 9, 2024, 1:06 PM


    In a year when so many Formula 1 teams have hit different upgrade problems, there is one common theme among them: car balance headaches.

    From Max Verstappen complaining his RB20 has turned into a ‘monster’, to Ferrari’s return of high-speed bouncing, to the Mercedes becoming nervous in qualifying and Aston Martin losing its way for a bit.

    Each team has experienced a near identical scenario of delivering a car upgrade that brings with it extra downforce but with it the side-effect of an altered car handling to make it feel worse from the cockpit.

    That so many teams have been struck down by this is no coincidence, because the extra performance being added this year has exposed some inherent technical challenges with the current ground effect cars.

    And central to it all is the way that two performance factors dominate handling. This is the varying downforce levels produced at different speeds as the car is pushed the car closer to the ground, allied to how the tyre temperatures are impacted throughout the lap.

    Both of these elements are dynamic and are forcing teams to chase the least worst compromise, rather than seek a perfect solution.


    This is something that has been known for a while, with Mercedes technical director James Allison opening up at the end of last year about the problems teams were having to wrestle in getting the current cars to produce the downforce when it was needed the most.

    “There's a sort of fundamental difficulty in these rules which is that the car will generate more and more downforce the lower it goes,” he said.

    “That’s not without limit, because you don't want it to just magnet itself onto the ground at the end of the straight, because at the end of the straight you generally are not going around the corner.

    “If that's where your best downforce is, it's just generating drag for you. So in order to cope with the load that that creates at the end of the straight, you're going to have to have stiff springs or higher ride heights.

    “If you've got higher ride heights, then that means that you're not going to be where the downforce is. So that means stiff springs. And so with these cars, there is this sort of treasure of downforce to be had near the ground, and you can find lots of it there. But you also have to survive the end of the straight.


    “So there is a sort of a little bit of a limit that this end of straight downforce consumes ride height that then punishes you in the low speed. And there comes a point where you can't support the end of straight loads without hurting yourself in the slow speed so much that it's no longer faster to have that end of straight downforce.

    “Everyone is trying to get things so that at the end of the straight you don't have quite as much load, but right next door to it you have loads, because the fast corners are right next door to the end of the straight.

    “Then you also want to hang on to an adequate amount for the slow speed stuff, despite the fact that the car just wants to lose all its downforce as it raises off the ground.

    “That's the challenge. I'm not saying anything that every person this pit lane isn't wrestling.”

    The downforce transition
    Teams seems to be struggling more with these compromises this year though. Aston Martin’s engineering director Luca Furbatto suggests that what is happening to the cars right now is quite simple to explain, but incredibly complex to get on top of.

    Speaking about the balance issues that have become a hot topic in F1, Furbatto said: “It is a problem of ours, but listening to the team radios I have the feeling that it is a fairly general thing.

    “There is the difficulty of these cars in turning in the corner entry phase. Let's say that the aerodynamic platform helps to find the load on the rear, to the detriment of the front, during the various phases of the turn.

    “Therefore, you can go from a neutral car on entry that becomes understeering before the apex and then becomes very oversteering on exit. This transition, which in the past was never so extreme, is becoming increasingly clear because these cars are reaching very high load [downforce] values."

    Furbatto suggests that teams have added around 45 percent more downforce since the ground effect cars were first introduced at the start of 2022.

    This has meant that teams are also finding themselves constantly walking a tightrope of trying to bring more performance without falling off it and opening up a world of porpoising problems.

    “If you reduce the bouncing a bit because you get the airflow under the car right, then it becomes natural to try to bring an update that increases the load a bit, and the porpoising returns," he said.

    “The more you push this regulation, the more there is the risk of seeing bouncing. It will be a phenomenon that we will have to deal with until the end of 2025, and I think it is one of the reasons why we will take another path in 2026.

    “After all, the drivers, even if they do not say it publicly, complain about the porpoising and several complain of back pain. I think this is an element of the regulation that needs to be addressed”.

    But to get a perfect lap means not only addressing the downforce issue, because equally critical is how the tyres are behaving. And in basic terms, if one axle gets hotter than the other, then that is a recipe for trouble through either too much understeer or too much oversteer.

    Furbatto added: “ In addition to having a change in the behaviour of the car when the aerodynamic forces that make the bottom of the car rise and fall, it also matters how the grip of the tyres varies.

    “It is no coincidence that in Monza we saw the preparation of the out-lap very different during qualifying.

    “You try to bring the tyres to certain temperatures in an attempt to mask those balance problems that in qualifying can be more serious than what you see in the race."

    The front wing issue
    What makes chasing solutions for the common car balance problem so hard is that the areas where car performance can be influenced have changed so much, with the floor now the most important element of all.

    Whereas in the past, teams could utilise front wing designs more to help balance the car, now it is not such as valuable a tool.

    Furbatto added: “With the previous regulation the load was divided approximately one third to the front wing, one third to the floor and, finally, one third to the rear wing.

    “So the wings had more relevance in modifying the balance, compared to today's cars that generate up to 70% of the downforce with the floor.

    “The ability to intervene with the front wing to find a balance has effectively halved.”

    In fact, the more aggressive use of flexi wings is a consequence of these car balance problems, because teams have realised that one of the best ways to overcome low-speed understeer and high-speed oversteer is to have a wing that exploits aero elasticity.

    In varying the wing's characteristics, it can help deliver that extra bite in slow speed and, as it is flexes down in the quickest stuff, that knocks off some of the risks of it putting too much on the nose there.

    Without the ability to flex the front wings, teams would face an even tougher time dealing with the car balance problems.

    The FIA has been analysing the behaviour of front wings since the Belgian Grand Prix, with a view to seeing if there are any regulation changes needed in this area for 2025.

    Furbatto thinks it will be situation unchanged though, because there is no way things can become stricter here if it is not to cause even bigger headaches for teams.

    “I don’t think there is an intention to change the 2025 regulation, because the fact that the wing bends within the rules is part of that attempt to find a balance of the cars,” he said.

    “I would say that it is a necessary evil of these ground effect single-seaters. Otherwise, with more rigid wings, we would find ourselves with drivers incapable of finding a useful set-up to make the car controllable”.

    Ultimately, the experience of this year suggests that F1's current regulations have brought with them some incredibly complex compromises – and that means no end to the balance headaches until the next rules era begins in 2026.
     
  6. itschris

    itschris Formula 3

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    To me... this is all politics and money. RedBull don't seem to be liked much and the drivers are not the celebrity/media darling type like Lewis was or like Lando is. How many times did we see this sort of thing... DAS - clear violation but go ahead and keep for the year. Rear wing flex to the point you could see the striations in it but it just disappeared... not consequence to an obvious cheating wing. What about the "rocket car" that suddenly and inexplicably came out of now where. Carefully imposed "penalties" that didn't alter the outcome but tried to show "hey... we're fair across the board."

    My thought has become it's all corrupt at this point. We don't have 60 second swings in F1 overnight. They want this to come to the wire and they're going to ensure that it does. They want to bring back the new age fan from the Netflix era after they lost interest or didn't like how RB dominated. For some reason that was just unacceptable to everyone. I don't remember much outcry of Mercedes dominating 8 years.
     
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  7. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I have a feeling going forward, an F1 team having 7 or 8 years of domination is OVER. It's all about the show and drawing it down to the last couple of races to draw viewership and attendance at the venues. If your Liberty Media and Domenicali, your loving it. If your a fan you either love it or detest it.

    2021, as far as veiwership and attendance was concerned had the "right formula."
     
  8. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    Completely agree. We saw many many examples of manipulation by F1/Liberty in 2021 to get such a dramatic championship that went down to the last race. It was their biggest hit and they want to replicate those results and we again are seeing very strange things happening to get their popular stars (Lando and Lewis) to be fighting with their villain (Max). As far as I am concerned, the FIA/F1/Liberty Media will do anything to manipulate a more entertaining show to increase their viewership and of course revenue.
     
  9. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    We have RedBull suffering as they make mistakes in upgrades and new parts. Same with Mercedes early on. Mclaren showed last year they could bring performance to the car and they have done it again this year. All of you thinking this is just total manipulation want Masi back lol. Yes? If its manipulated get Benny Sulayem to hire his buddy back and make it all better.
    The comments here border on paranoid. Dont watch then as you know all the answers to the entire series. You could say this about EVERY major series at some point. My word is NASCAR not the epitome of manipulation idiocy?? Im so happy I see this very differently. We have a good season going with some interesting battles. Some teams getting it right and some not doing so. Its called racing. Variance is part of it.
    Oh and Mercedes domination was in the news constantly and certainly here. Ferrari domination and literally no competition with his pathetic contracts forcing NO competition inside the team. I do not miss that at all.
     
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  10. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    You can see things through a lens that makes you comfortable. Most do. Either you are choosing to ignore very factual occurrences that suggest manipulation and corruption or you are naive and believe the story book fantasies in sports are pure and true. Like you said it makes you happy to see it that way. It can be very frustrating to recognize forms of bias or manipulation that are strictly unfair, though I do admit it can be for the better of the sport. When Ferrari dominated the 2000s and the FIA changed rules year after year to stop the dominance it was frustrating as a Ferrari fan. They deserved that dominance because they were the better team after all. From a sporting aspect, I suppose it makes sense at the time as people want to see competition. Unfortunately it was even more frustrating when Mercedes dominated and the FIA protected their advantages.

    The vast majority of fluctuations in sporting competition remains organic. Could be from cheating, but not from manipulation from the governing bodies. Does it make sense that Red Bull brought upgrades that ruined their car after being the only team to understand these ground effect cars from day 1? Not to me. Their drivers would know exactly what upgrade changed the balance so badly that it became uncompetitive. Seems much more likely one of their tricks have been removed. Is it the asymmetrical braking system or something else, or some combo of parts? Who knows. Did Mercedes and McLaren develop such massive gains all on their own? Maybe. But it is interesting they both have extremely flexy wings that the FIA chooses to allow and the article you posted states the how such a flexy front wing can be vital to the cars balance. What about Mercedes trick front damper system? Frick and Mass dampers are banned, but they have some device that evidently has solved their porpoising and yet it didn't even get looked at. I'm not saying it's illegal, just saying it seems like it's been overlooked. That being said, this championship has become much more enjoyable now that there are multiple teams challenging for wins.
     
  11. Temerian

    Temerian Formula Junior
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    It would be even more enjoyable if Ferrari could unlock McLaren type gains...
     
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  12. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    I thought they had entered such a path. Closer maybe we can hope.
     
  13. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    I hope so, though I fear their Monza upgrade was specific for low downforce. I suspect the upgrades will work in Baku but we may need to wait until Singapore to see if it's actually car upgrade or a track specific upgrade.
     
  14. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    If every car going through scrutineering had each part 3D-mapped and the 3D maps made available to all teams, not of these tightening up of the rules mid-year would be necessary.
     
  15. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Honda and Alpine in procedural breach of F1 cost cap
    The FIA reveals that Honda and Alpine made procedural breaches with F1’s power unit manufacturer cost cap
     
  16. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Formula 1 secures $2.55 billion loan ahead of MotoGP takeover
     
  17. Sempre_gilles

    Sempre_gilles Formula 3

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    Are they really going to destroy MotoGP as well???
     
  18. DF1

    DF1 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Bahrain to host 2025 F1 pre-season testing despite calendar shift
    Testing will be held on 26, 27 and 28 February ahead of the new season
     
  19. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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  20. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    If Ferrari don't win regularly, it's because all the other teams are cheating. That's the party line here.
     
  21. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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  22. Temerian

    Temerian Formula Junior
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    F*** that guy!
     
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  23. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Imola MIGHT(highly stress,) get cancelled.

    The region is facing a deluge and emergency crews have been dispatched to help those in need.

    to be continued......
     
  24. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree 100% with MBS. We don't need to hear tantrums over the radio when watching F1 on TV; I certainly don't !

    But why Liberty have to broadcast pit-to-car radio communications in the first place. AFAIK, it's private.

    Why Liberty expects a running commentary from each driver during a race.

    Are there other sports that do that ?
     

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