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F1 commits to hybrid power units for next generation of engines

Discussion in 'F1' started by DF1, Nov 12, 2020.

  1. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I maintain that eliminating ICE altogether is ambitious at best, and also wrong, as the math presented to/by governments is based on ideal circumstances. I think Porsche may well be on the right path with their new synthetic fuel. A combination of the two, synthetic fuel hybrids, is likely the best answer.
     
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  3. pilotoCS

    pilotoCS F1 Veteran
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    Also, what happened in Texas these past weeks revealed significant flaws in the power grid. If they had gone to totally electric vehicles, they would have been massively screwed under those circumstances.
     
  4. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Bingo. The forcing of EV on manufacturers is rushed. Governments aren't even prepared for a bit of snow.
     
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  5. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Veteran
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    Andreas Preuninger at Porsche was mentioning their progress on synthetic fuels during the new GT3 Launch. Sounded promising.
     
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  6. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Really looking forward to how that develops. Hybridization is inevitable I would say for city driving, but that's better than full electric only...!
     
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  8. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Veteran
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    I'll have to look into more, but if I'm not mistaken, I think he said they have a technology/refinery partner already in South America that is making test samples. Regardless, I hope they keep some of the emotion of IC engines, I can't imagine attending an F1 race with a bunch of electric slot cars going round and round.
     
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  9. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I think that form is racing will be so unpopular F1 would cease to exist, and I doubt Liberty would buy F1 simply to dispose of it.

    Porsche isn't stupid, so I presume they'll provide the full figures involved with synthetic fuel vs EV and total environmental impact. I've got a feeling synthetic fuel will be significantly more friendly than EV.
     
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  10. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Veteran
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    If the winds of change bring synthetic fuel to F1, and Porsche is the development leader, I'd love to see a single seater from Stuttgart!
     
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  11. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    VW/Audi group has teased long enough...Porsche of course was in F1 a few times over the course of history, as engine supplier and as a team. Time for a return!
     
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  13. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    +1 Absolutely
     
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  14. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    There is at least factor of 2× in Lithium batteries--the new Lithium sulfur batteries for example over Lithium Ion.
    But I can agree that there does not appear to be anything in the 2× range chemically possible after that.

    But gasoline has 46 MJ/kg while even the best Lithium sulfur only has 1.8MJ/Kg--a 25.5× disadvantage; down from 52× from lithium ion.......
    Given that motors can get into the 80% TE range and the current F1 engines in the 50% range, the performance curve is still strongly pointed at ICEs by 16:1.
     
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  15. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I had a quick read up about these Sulfur batteries, it seems their biggest downside is leaking which of course reduces re-usability enormously, which immediately throws away the ''good for environment'' argument and of course, makes them not at all suitable for road cars.

    - -

    It's hard to get a real world comparison as to how slow the Formula E's really are, seeing as they only run on their own tracks that no one else can race on, and even then they are not on racing slicks. A simulator as shown below gives a pretty good idea what sort of times are possible (seeing as conditions don't vary). Of course it's not completely accurate but not far off real world conditions.



    A 2019 Formula E car is slower than a ~10 year old Nissan GTR. Both on street tyres... Those that are thinking that Batteries can bridge the gap, because ICE has been in development for 100+ years and Li-ion batteries for only 30, consider this: ICE engines are 50% efficient (as you mention above), Li-ion batteries are at 99%. Also consider that ICE engines really weren't about improving efficiency for much of their life. The real big strides in efficiency have only been in development for around 30 years, and with huge wins in the last few years. li-ion batteries also may not have had *that much* development on the car side, but in the highly competitive mobile phone and laptop market that's been 30 years of development purely based on battery life, weight and performance.

    Li-Sulfur batteries with roughly double the performance of li-ion will either only increase range by double or double the power at similar discharge rate (if heat is not the issue).

    F1 fully electric? I just don't see it.
     
  16. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    turbo ICE hybrids, not just ICEs.

    [/QUOTE] Li-ion batteries are at 99%. [/QUOTE]

    Only at low discharge rates (street velocities in a street car), at high discharge rates (drag racing) they are only 80%-ish, at 20 minute race discharge rated 90%-ish.
     
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  17. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Don't forget INEOS (1/3 owner of Mercedes-AMG).
    It's one of the biggest chemical company, and they are very much into synthetic fuel already.
     
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  18. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    You are right; it's very important to make the distinction.

    Worshiped by some for their noise; atmospheric ICEs are not very efficient.
     
  19. itschris

    itschris Formula 3

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    I was really hoping for something innovative that splits the difference ... like what Pay Symonds had been suggesting with the latest tech in 2 cycle engines. Politics of course rue the day. I still find it laughable that anyone involved in F1 has the balls to even utter a sentence about sustainability and the environment. Let's save a few gallons on the car, but burn the world down with jets flying their crap all over the world. Just utterly hypocritic and laughable.
     
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  20. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
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    Breakthrough expected from this weekends Monza engine meeting. Looks like all parties agree to get rid of the MGU-H. Introduction of new engine to be delayed till 2026. Surprisingly Honda will take part in the discussions too.

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    Breakthrough in F1 engine for 2026 MGU-H is about to end


    In Monza, the CEOs of the automakers meet for another top round about the F1 engine of the future. The parties are optimistic that an agreement will be reached by the end of October. One thing is certain: the new engine will not come until 2026. We have the first technical details.


    This engine is a difficult birth. Because there are three parties that have to meet. The FIA and the F1 management have a precise idea of what the drive unit of the future should look like. Inexpensive, sustainable, attractive and feasible for newcomers.


    Mercedes and Renault have an interest in being able to benefit from their experience with previous hybrid technology and not having to start from scratch again. Audi, Porsche and Red Bull, on the other hand, want a new start in order to be competitive as quickly as possible. Ferrari is in between and is ready to compromise.

    The engine group has been meeting at regular intervals since autumn 2020 to discuss the drive concept and the financial framework. Because the positions are so different, there has been little progress for a long time. But now a breakthrough is on the horizon. Because the front line of the established manufacturers seems to be breaking open. Mercedes and Renault allegedly no longer want to hold onto the MGU-H at any cost.

    New engine not until 2026

    As in Spielberg, there will now be another top round in Monza on Sunday with the CEOs of the car companies, FIA President Jean Todt and Formula 1 bosses Stefano Domenicali and Ross Brawn.


    In addition to Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull, Audi and Porsche, Honda is surprisingly also there. Despite their resignation, the Japanese apparently have an interest in finding out how things will continue in five years. It wouldn't be the first time Honda has returned to the premier class. Toyota, on the other hand, has stayed out of all discussions until now.

    It is now also clear: the new engine will definitely not come until 2026. For a start a year earlier, the parties involved should have come to an agreement more quickly. When the concept is finally in place, all the technical and logistical detail work has to be done. The F1 management hopes that a regulation can be presented in eight weeks.

    Number of cylinders not a question of faith

    Obviously, it is no longer a question of faith how many cylinders the new engine should have. If the established manufacturers feel more comfortable with a V6, it can also be a six-cylinder. For newcomers like Audi or Porsche or Red Bull as a private manufacturer, it doesn't matter either. A standard block is supposedly planned. There is room for development only with the cylinder head and the combustion. This lowers the hurdle for new prospects.



    Another goal is a significant reduction in costs. The unit is said to be reduced from two million dollars to well below one million. That is not possible with the current V6 turbo with its extremely efficient combustion and the MGU-H. Because the coordination between the turbocharger, MGU-H and combustion engine is highly complex and costs too much money to develop.

    The "hot" electric machine was a political issue for a long time. The MGU-H embodies high engineering art, but because of the immense test bench effort it is neither sustainable nor relevant to series production. The chances of ever seeing them in a mass-produced car are zero. And with that, their advocates run out of arguments.

    Electric power is to increase to 350 kW

    The internal combustion engine will lose power. Firstly because of the planned simplification, secondly because of the lower energy density of synthetic fuels or biofuels. The use of one hundred percent sustainable fuel creates the freedom that you no longer have to slavishly cling to the flow rate limitation of 100 kg / h. In the case of CO2 neutrality, consumption no longer plays the decisive role.




    In this way, the loss of power can partly be absorbed by higher consumption as well as by more electrical power. Ideally, this should increase from 120 to 350 kilowatts (475 hp). The MGU-H could not have performed this task at all.

    Recuperation only on the rear axle would have posed problems in terms of driving dynamics. This is why more and more manufacturers can now make friends with the fact that energy can also be recovered on the front axle without using it again directly. Most of them reject four-wheel drive for reasons of weight.

    Does Red Bull get any concessions?

    In addition to the technical questions, it must also be clarified where the cost cap for engine manufacturers could be and how newcomers can be helped to build competitive engines quickly. This is only possible with a temporary increase in the budget and more test bench runs.



    On this issue, Red Bull could now become a bone of contention. Red Bull Powertrains sees itself as a newcomer because it will build its own engine for the first time in 2026. If the engine concept changes so radically, you will not be able to adopt much of the Honda knowledge.

    Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari categorically reject Red Bull's request. In her opinion, the Powertrain department from Milton Keynes will be among the established in five years and should therefore not benefit from concessions.


    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/f1-motor-2026-ohne-mgu-h/&prev=search&pto=aue







     
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  21. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    So more electric power, less power in the ICE, now a standard block planned. More electric combined with lower power ICE. Ever inching closer to spec motor and less ICE. Fuel that has is less powerful.

    No need to provide RedBull an exception. Honda are not really leaving. They are actively supporting RedBull in the PU production etc. Honda is a paid consultant.

    With all electric push by most large makers now ICE is on the way out. They may remain on the road and burn bio fuels but motoring is going to be electric. F1 still has no viable future past the next ICE unit in 26. The question remains. What is the future of F1 after the next PU in 26. By that time E-motoring will be much more in vogue with the public. ICE motor in racing will be anachronistic vs the public direction of E. So where is the relevance overall to makers. The E part of the motor yes but not the ICE component.
     
  22. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The top speed in most countries is 130kph. If we're sticking with this road relevant malarky, limit top speed as well.
     
  23. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    Considering that the current engines produce 1000 HP on 2/3rds the fuel the V10 used to get 900 HP, the hybrids are significantly more thermodynamically efficient than preceding formulas.
     
  24. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    The problem is ICE based engines are faster as the tank runs down. EVs are slower as the tank burns down.
     
  25. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
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    Well yes, I'll take your thermodynamically efficiency and raise you astronomically costly and way too complex.

    This hybrid era (2014 thru 2025???) is/was an era I can't wait to get rid of.
     
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  26. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    I completely agree Joe but the FIA is addicted to the money stream from the manufacturers. F1 will keep getting worse I'm afraid.
     
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  27. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    +1 our feelings are fun to express. We always solve the world problems here lol. The FIA and Liberty have the funding to do what they think is right. We get to watch the evolution - good or bad.

    Racing will continue but it will change into something some fans will love and others detest. Such is life with the FIA and the makers and Liberty or who owns F1.

    The old formula of V10 or larger is gone. Turbo 4 etc is gone but might come back as we switch to smaller and more E focused energy for F1. The problem remains of F1 and its power source in 7 years or a few more. E is here, no one is 100% ready in government or racing. Change is often in steps no matter. I will watch until its not fun to do so.

    The real future of F1 conversation is not being held by choice. It scares the current powers as to manage risk entails control. The time-frame of control is beyond their grasp currently. Its too many years for them to mitigate the literal unknown even just a few years out. Will we need all this Tilke circuits etc? Certainly it is not just PU's/cars etc. The entire network is at risk with the real change they dont appear to have in focus.
     
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