I don't want to get into the Hamilton/Alonso/Mclaren debate for the 4320985093582th time, so in my opinion Alonso is the better driver. Your opinion is Hamilton is better. Lets leave it at that. The other being above Hamilton is because of what they did, when they did it, how they did it and some of their careers were cut short before they could join the greatest. They displayed a genius and ability behind the wheel that goes beyond stats. Thats why Senna had such a huge following and greatness. It was HOW he did it not WHAT he did. Statistically, Schumacher is the greatest driver ever. I dont think he was the greatest driver ever. Thats my opinion.
He was a beast, regardless. A little ruthless, but without a doubt he could take a piece of crap and compete for the WDC (like the F310b...horrible car, but almost won the '97 WDC with it). Put any of the guys at the top of the food chain in the same car and I would surmise that none would run away with a mythical all-time WDC. Like with Senna & Prost, every one of them will have their good days and bad days, wins and losses. It's fair to say there is a select group of drivers who are a cut above the rest. Who is the best really is a matter of personal preference.
I once red something from Nigel Roebuck and it stuck with me forever.....he said he didn't like lists (best drivers lists) even champion lists, and that any list that left Moss out was an absurdity. It's funny that both him and Dennis Jenkinson (probably the greatest racing journalist of all times, and that co-drived Moss to his win in the Mille Miglia) held Moss as one of teh top drivers of all time. Jenkinson top 5 list were : Ascari, Moss, Clark, Gilles and Senna......i have no reason to desagree with him, for as Roebuck pointed out, he never saw Fangio race again Ascari, but Jenkinson did. However Nigel believed Prost to be better than Senna. I think the character of the driver also is important and while Senna, Shumacher were giants as drivers, they also resorted to cheating and schemes to achieve success, That would have never crossed the mind of someone like Gilles, Clark or Moss...in fact, while Hamilton lied to the Stewarts in order to get and adversary disqualified, In the 1958 Portuguese G.p, Moss testified in favour of Hawthorn, stoping him from being disqualified and in doing so, lost the title to the same Hawthorn!!! In my book this also must be taken into acount. The reason why i don't rate so much modern drivers wins it's because you have so many g.ps per year, because mechanical DNFs are almos inexistante and because given the right car, you could easily win 15 g.ps over a year!! This the best any top driver could expect to win in the 50s, 60s or 70s, so it's absurd to look at the stats from someone like Vettel or Hamilton and weight them against Moss, fangio or Clark. This is why i rather watch a driver skill in controling a car, driving in the rain, making that amazing overtaking, saving an iminet shunt, braking beond limits and still making the turn, than watching some guy with a vastly superior car cruise to victory race after race. I have said it once and i'll say it again, Lewis is good, very, good but i still haven't seen him do anything that made me jump out of the sofa.....Anyone looking at Ronnie Peterson or Gilles tamming theyr cars was simply blown by it, watching Senna , Alesi or Shumacher in the rain was a pure spectacle....but at present, i fail to see a single driver that can cause this sort of impression on me, and until that happens, no matter how many gps and how many titles he wins, he will never be on my top list.
Something in me says Verstappen is going to impress. The next Senna, no, there will never be another Senna....but he's only 17 and he's got the goods. Give him a few years experience in some lesser cars and move him into a contender and he'll win.
No argument from me on any of those points!..... +1 All +1 Gilles & Ronnie in particular could drive any ol' POS quickly. And Michael, at his best, was simply sublime in the same way as Ayrton - You *knew* you were watching something very, very special. Cheers, Ian
I'm inclined to agree with you, Max seems to be the real deal....on the other hand what do i know, i'm just an iliterate spanish guy named Pesto!!!! )
You may be correct on young Max - He certainly appears to be "the real deal". However, I think we need to look at the number of "hot shots" that were going to be the next Ayrton/Michael/whoever over the years - These days they burst onto the scene, get some decent results, and are going to rule the world. Rarely does it happen. He's also very fortunate to have Jos guiding him; [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdv3jMQWXE0[/ame] Shows the resources Jos threw at him from day one - Good for them! Cheers, Ian
Yep, & you're very welcome! Gives something of an insight into what it takes to win, even at the "junior" levels. I suspect Jos will pick up another young karting hotshot sometime soon - Similar to what Uncle Ron did with Elton..... Cheers, Ian
I will just leave this here and run for cover. http://youtu.be/d6opMZBux1w One of the podcasts I listen to uses this tune for the Lewis Hamilton Fashion Award every other week, it is an ear worm, you have been warned. I thought this thread could use a bit more levity.
Lot of time and money indeed...Now hope it will all pay off over the next 15 years, F1 wise. I reckon he'll podium before end 2016. Brundle has pipped him to replace Kimi at Ferrari in 2017...Future WDC for sure!
I think this is partly because the cars are so advanced, the drivers seem like they are in total control 99% of the time. The 1% out of control is primarily dominated by Maldonado. When Fernando says "these cars are too easy to drive fast" I completely concur. Not saying that I could jump into one and be even the next Pastor, but I don't believe they really test the drivers' skills. What we basically see in a champion now is who can be 'in the zone' for the highest % of the time on the track (assuming he has the best car already).
Lewis's drive in Hungary last year was masterful. Starts in the pit lane and beats his team mate who started on pole. It seems the current trend is that people won't recognise a driver as great until they see some "magic". I think it's simply the nature of the modern formula that this will never be the case. The cars are easy to drive at the limit, there is no scope to show how great you are other than driving consistently a few tenths quicker than your opposition. Whereas in the old days the cars were different and there was much more latitude - one could show skill very easily. Also modern racing is much more competitive - they are all athletes and come up through driver programmes so the talent pool is much larger and more competitive. This year it seems one can't even overtake due to new front ends unless they have a superior car or difference in strategy means the tires are much fresher. So if one continues to espouse "seeing amazing things" as the yardstick for greatness then obviously they will never think any driver of the new era is any good - this is what pedro does (or pesto as he now wants to go by). And Ian also. Gone are the days that you can outqualify the field by 15 seconds in the wet, aero so advanced you can't even pass so drs is invented and now that barely helps due to changes to the front end. Drivers of the modern era can only be judged against the results they achieve vis-a-vis their peers. Hamilton Alonso and Vettel are dominating f1 just as much as Prost and senna. All drivers old and new who performed this well had dominant cars. Difference between the old and new era is in the new era the scope to show "brilliance" is much reduced due to the nature of the cars, the modern driver and the regulations. Does this make them any worse? I don't think so. Just the nature of the current formula. When alonso scores triple the points of a fellow wdc that is supposed to be fast we should sit up and take notice. When Lewis outqualfies a guy who outqualified Schumacher and does so 10-1 then we should take notice. Lewis ahead in Monaco by near half a minute on a drivers track, matching alonso on his rookie season. All great things.
I've visited many dealerships that didn't have those resources!..... A rolling road dyno! More motors than most dealers stock! And obviously no restrictions on tires! +1 "Work hard enough, and the rewards should come" [Assuming you have the budget of course. ] In the Baby Can? Or do you think he'll move on next year? *Many* have been anointed as "future WDC's" - Few deliver..... As for him heading to Maranello, I dunno - They (generally) like a proven track record - They'll pay to hire WDC's, not so big on "rookies". Cheers, Ian
wasn't it also last year where he got away so terribly lucky after his rookie spin in the second corner of the race?
(am on my phone so near with me) Work hard is what's certainly needed, but the luck of a good car too . Alonso is prime example of that! Yes I think he'll podium in the baby can, **** he almost did in Hungary had he not had a speeding penalty! Str might run Ferrari engines again as of next year too... Many have promised to look good, few deliver indeed, but as with Hamilton, Vettel and kimi early on in their careers it was just a matter of time. Last time Ferrari didn't take a young Str kid when they did take interested the guy won 4 titles, including 3 from Ferrari , and now he drives for them at a considerably higher cost . James allison is a smart cookie so might play a role in convincing the big wigs that splashing out another 20,30 Mil on a driver is a bit of a dumb move, rather spend it on the car instead!
I think he'll stay in the baby cans for at least another year. His father looks like he's steering him in the right direction. Gain experience, hands on track knowledge, mature in the car, then move up to something better. I just see something in him that's been lacking for a while. Call it "special". He's humble when he speaks, soft spoken, and can keep up with the rest of them. Once he hones his skills he'll be a weapon IMO
