F1 'gear box failure light' and loss of power in 6th gear | FerrariChat

F1 'gear box failure light' and loss of power in 6th gear

Discussion in '360/430' started by dormaj, Oct 21, 2024.

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  1. dormaj

    dormaj Karting

    Feb 8, 2007
    73
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jeff Dorman
    I'm driving on I95 doing around 85MPH in 6th gear and the F1 gear indicator (number 6) starts flashing and I feel a loss of power. The red 'F1 gearbox failure' icon comes on the info display. As I move a couple lanes to the right and near the shoulder, I shift down to 4 and catch the gear. The indicator light goes off and I get back up to speed in 6th gear and keep going. I keep it around 75MPH and get to my destination about 15 miles away without incident.

    On my way home it happens again on I95 in 6th gear when I am in the left lane doing 80-85MPH again. Same thing. As I am moving to the shoulder I shift down to 3rd or 4th and catch the gear. The indicator light goes off and I get back up to 6th gear. I keep it around 75MPH and get to my destination.

    The manual says the flashing gear indicator reflects 'low system pressure'.

    The F1 pump primes for about 5 seconds when I open the door to take the car out. Pretty normal.

    Could this be a relay? Or a pressure sensor? Or the pump failing? Or....?

    I'm taking it to my local shop tomorrow, but I'd sure like to hear your expert opinions.

    Thanks!
     
  2. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,900
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Before I can give you my opinion do the following tests

    Turn key on engine off and time pump on and off cycles ..don't count the first cycle ..the pump on time has to pretty precise
    Then count how many shifts you get before pump goes on ..1-n1-n
    Then do first test above with car running
    And then do test again a steady 25 mph . Straight no gear changes
     
  3. dormaj

    dormaj Karting

    Feb 8, 2007
    73
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jeff Dorman
    I'm sorry, but I don't know what you are asking me to do.

    When I open the car door after it sits all night and the pump runs for 7 seconds. I can turn the key to Accessory. But I can't shift gears. And I can sit there for a few minutes and never hear the pump run. I take the key out.

    I go away for a few minutes and when I come back and open the door the pump runs for a split second. I turn the key all the way, but don't start the engine. I can go to 1st and 2nd gear, but no farther. I go back and forth 10 times and never hear the pump run. After a couple of minutes I take the key out.

    After a few minutes, I go back and open the door and the pump runs for a split second.

    Can you be more specific, please?
     
  4. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,900
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    I sent you a PM with my number call me -- easier to talk
     
  5. dormaj

    dormaj Karting

    Feb 8, 2007
    73
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jeff Dorman
    Thanks for the help, Dominick!
     
    flash32 likes this.
  6. dormaj

    dormaj Karting

    Feb 8, 2007
    73
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jeff Dorman
    BTW - this is a 2000 360 Modena with 24K miles and a clutch replacement 2 months ago.
     
  7. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,900
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Anytime - given we didn't have any data from the tool - the limited amount of research makes me think the following - The accumulator is on the weaker side and probably should be changed but most likely not the issue. I am thinking (SWAG here) that the TCU is sensing that the position of the gear is incorrect for the gear selected - this could be as simple as a doing a re-learn of the gearbox and seeing if problem goes away or points to failing potentiometers. We were also not able to test clutch solenoid and view the leakage rate - so that is still on table
    Please lets us know what you find out
    Sorry I couldn't be more exact but with these systems , I need to get good real time data to make a good diag - so all this is just guessing that doesn't really help
     
  8. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,900
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Rob

    If you do get the tool to read / function with the TCU ( CS) and decide to do a relearn - please capture all the 32 min/max values - this way we can create a grid before and after and see how things shifted
     
  9. dormaj

    dormaj Karting

    Feb 8, 2007
    73
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jeff Dorman
    Dom,

    The diagnostics indicated the performance of the F1 pump as 'marginal'. Stan is suggesting a new F1 pump in the $400 range. Not the entire assembly that Ferrari asks ~$13K for. Estimates about 3-4 hours of labor. Stan said he could hear the pump, and it is supposed to be silent, but you can feel it when it operated.

    Does that sound about right?
     
    flash32 likes this.
  10. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,900
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    We spoke and suggested to ask a few things ..let us know how you make out
     
  11. dormaj

    dormaj Karting

    Feb 8, 2007
    73
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jeff Dorman
    #11 dormaj, Oct 24, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2024
    His diagnostics can't identify if individual components such as the solenoid leak. He said that's why the dealer will recommend replacing the entire assembly. The accumulator did not indicate a problem. The replacement pump has been ordered.

    He says it's simply a temperature issue. The fluid gets hots and thins (e.g. engine oil) and the 'marginal' pump can't keep the pressure up. After running hard on I95 for 12 miles, the F1 system pressure error popped up. I took some load off the system (dropped my MPH) and made it to my destination.

    We shall see if it's only the pump. Soon.
     
  12. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,900
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Hi
    Based on the timings you gave me of a less than two sec refresh time (I am going solely based on that ) ..that definitely points to a weak accumulator and not so much of a pump .. but he has the car in front of him so of course he would have a better chance of proper diagnosis

    As far as testing the clutch solenoid..that can be seen by leakage rate in data stream and timings of pump cycles with car running

    I would highly consider changing the relay as well ..

    I assume he is well versed in the F1 as you say so I will say I just don't have the insight of data to make the same diagnosis as he can ...thus the difference of opinion

    Keep us posted
     
  13. dormaj

    dormaj Karting

    Feb 8, 2007
    73
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jeff Dorman
    Thanks! Will do!
     
    flash32 likes this.
  14. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,900
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    #14 flash32, Oct 24, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2024
    Also ..let's not forget if you didn't get the slow down light .....my original thoughts that the pressure is an concern but may not be the root problem ...I think the potentiometers/relearn may still be the root cause ..

    But again ..I don't have even know if / what error codes were set etc

    Doing the diag with small bits of info is not probably the best thing :)

    Just trying to set expectations if the problem resurfaces
     
  15. swc5150

    swc5150 Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 5, 2021
    721
    Wisconsin
    Full Name:
    Scott Calderwood
    Not to stick my beak in, but I had the identical thing happen in my 430 and Dominick helped me diagnose a potentiometer problem. It's easy to throw money at F1 problems before getting to the root.
     
    flash32 likes this.
  16. dormaj

    dormaj Karting

    Feb 8, 2007
    73
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jeff Dorman
    Hey guys. Thanks for all the great input. Got the car back from Strictly Foreign and the car is running great. The pump/motor assembly was replaced.

    I will have to get it out on I95 and run it at high speed for a 20 miles to see if the error is thrown again. If it does I will be back to update you all. If not, I will be very happy to be $1,425 lighter in the wallet.
     
    swc5150 and flash32 like this.
  17. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,900
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Glad it all worked out ...

    I would love to see what the timings you get now after pump replacement..you had mentioned a 2 second refresh rate ..is that the same
     
    Jaymac likes this.

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