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F1 overhaul thread; clutch, pump, throwout, flywheel, 360 pump etc.

Discussion in '348/355' started by Subarubrat, Nov 15, 2014.

  1. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
    2,071
    VA
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    Scott
    #1 Subarubrat, Nov 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I figured I should post a thread on this for the benefit of my fellow F1 owners.

    Like more than a few of us, my F1 worked perfectly until it didn't; http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/348-355-sponsored-bradan/457349-f1-glitch-when-leaving-light-never-seen-before.html

    The F1 system worked great until I started getting a few glitches and inspection showed that the motor mounts were failed which caused interference to the actuator. I replaced the motor mounts and the problems seemed to be gone until a few drives later there was some minor trouble selecting gears. I followed the self cal procedure in the WSM and it worked better than ever for a few drives, until it didn't. Last drive out I had more trouble selecting gears which got progressively worse and I noticed that it would have a slight creep at a stop while in gear (clutch not fully disengaged).

    After thinking I had the problem licked and seeing it get worse it was time to get in there an see what was going on. Inspection after disassembly showed some hidden problems. Also, the system obviously needs a proper calibration with the SD computer and if I am going to haul it to the shop for that I want to make sure any upgrades and repair work is done first.

    Parts and upgrades ordered were;
    -Hill 360 pump adapter
    -360 pump
    -clutch disk
    -all seals in that section
    -clutch position sensor
    -hill throwout bearing
    -hoses

    After pulling the clutch cover it was obvious that some tranny fluid was present as the inside was oily and there was some fluid on the clutch hub. The leak was not bad enough to drip out of the housing but it was enough to cause trouble.

    First new problem, on one side of the clutch the tranny fluid was starting to contaminate the disk and mix with the cluth dust to create a messy coating on the flywheel face.

    Second new problem, cleaning off that layer from the flywheel revealed a score in the face, it is not as deep as it looks on the pic but it is there. Hopefully I can machine this down to clean metal and remain in specs.
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  3. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,262
    Commifornia
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Looking forward to seeing the progress.
     
  4. Radiation

    Radiation Karting

    Mar 5, 2013
    74
    Alberta, Canada
    Full Name:
    Sean
    X2

    I have a great interest in the F1 system myself.
     
  5. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
    2,071
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    Scott
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  7. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
    2,071
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    Scott
    #6 Subarubrat, Jan 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The bearing extraction for the flywheel was a huge pain, the flywheel side bearing was frozen into place!

    Step 1, use pilot bearing tool. *TINK* tool snaps

    Step 2, weld eyebolt to inside of inner race and attempt to pull out with engine hoist; nope

    Step 3, heat with torch and pull with engine hoist; nope

    Step 4, cut out the ball spacer and extract the inner race and balls, that exposed the circlip underneath and allowed me to finish disassembling the damper and flywheel. Then I pressed the bearing outer race out from behind.

    The pic shows the circlip hidden beneath the bearing now exposed with the balls and inner race removed. If you run into a stuck bearing this method works easily.
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  8. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
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    #7 Subarubrat, Jan 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Fortunately the interior of the damper was in great shape, although my triple seals were starting to leak there was very minimal contamination of the kluber and all the interior bits were in like new condition. I got the damper all back together with new kluber and O-ring. Now I am just waiting on the bearings and rings to arrive (just ordered today).

    Thanks to MD clutches for the sanity check on the damper seals. Such a fuss is made about the outer seals and rivets etc. but hard to believe nothing seals the area around the flywheel mount, but that is the case.
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  9. jochem00

    jochem00 Formula Junior

    Jun 19, 2014
    341
    Netherlands
    Did you put the grease into the outer spaces and not in the spaces with the springs?

    I managed to put all grease in the spaces for the springs but my flywheel is still making noise so I have to pull everything apart again
     
  10. scrappin35

    scrappin35 Karting

    Dec 13, 2011
    187
    Upperville VA
    Full Name:
    Jim H
    Where do you plan to take if for the SD calibration?
     
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  12. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
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    I wish I had snapped a pic before closing it up. I used a small brush to "paint" all the part surfaces with grease so that there were no dry spots, and I used a reasonably even amount of grease in the pockets for the rollers and the springs. I know it will get distributed as needed when spun but why let something wear until it does?

    As far as your rattle. How much did you use? The WSM calls for one amount but per Dave Helms and other sources the amount was upped to 220gm to address residual rattles. From reading around some cars needed even a bit more than that. I am not sure you need to pull everything apart, there are two plugs on the backside of the damper assy and you could syringe in additional grease if you were short of the 220gm.
     
  13. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
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    Either Competizione in Gaithersburg MD or maybe Ferrari of Washington which is a bit closer, depends on how huge the gulf is in pricing, I think both will do a proper job.
     
  14. gmbjr

    gmbjr Karting

    Dec 18, 2013
    67
    Austin, TX
    Does anyone know where to go for SD calibration here in Texas?
     
  15. Shootfighter65

    Shootfighter65 Formula 3

    May 13, 2014
    1,376
    Charleston SC
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    Randy..alluneedtokno
    Did you put in a new PP also?
     
  16. jochem00

    jochem00 Formula Junior

    Jun 19, 2014
    341
    Netherlands
    I put in 155 grams but not sure if the grease will find its way to the outer spaces as everything is tight together.
     
  17. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
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    Scott
    It should distribute fine, and it sounds like your on the low side for grease quantity. I think you could but in another 30g into each plug on the backside and it may well fix the problem.
     
  18. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    11,563
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    how did you cut the ball spacer?
     
  19. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
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    Just a screwdriver and giving it a few taps like a chisel breaks it open, after that you grab the end with needle nose pliers and roll it up like the metal strip on a tin can. Once the spacer is pulled out you can push the balls to one side and tilt the inner race or grind a "gate" for the balls to slip out. Then the balls and inner race come right out. Wish I had done that right away when it didn't come out with the puller.
     
  20. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2005
    4,145
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    chris
    great advice.....this was always a concern when I get around to replacing the grease
     
  21. JSBMD

    JSBMD Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2007
    413
    The OC
    Full Name:
    John
    Sounds like your refurb is coming along well SB.

    I had a long battle with F1 system acting up after new clutch, as many may recall. The car wouldn't complete a gear change but would jump to neutral. Stopped, motor off, the car would change gears just fine. Recalibrated many many times, all to no avail. Many months and gray hairs later, what my problem was turned out to be sort of coincidental with the clutch replacement. Just needed a fresh pair of eyes and hands on it to find the answer.

    Turned out to be a failed F1 pressure accumulator bulb. Lousy $400 part was causing all my issues. Seems the pump makes pressure in great spikes, but the system likes more or less steady pressure to operate. Thus, the pump pumps into the accumulator, which essentially runs the system.

    Anyway, it seems your clutch and PP/flywheel are appropriately being serviced, and I expect your issues lie here. But for any of you F1 owners out there who have a reluctant F1 system, the accumulator may be another source of hiccup.

    Meanwhile, it is indeed very cool to see this project coming along well.
     
  22. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
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    Scott
    The root of my problem seems to point toward the clutch position sensor, and if I had to crack this thing open to do that I decided to do the pump conversion, clutch, etc. The clutch actually having a problem was a bit of a surprise since there was no slippage, but it sure could have complicated the symptoms. My accumulator seems fine (I did a primitive test like we do on aircraft accumulators). If I have a bad accumulator now or in the future I am going to use the base of this accumulator and fab up an adapter to go to a standard aviation accumulator of similar size so that future replacement (if any) will be a much more certain thing.

    All this accumulator stuff can be seen here, 03:05 for the pretty pic;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrFAbNELQYE&feature=player_detailpage
     
  23. FCOnyx

    FCOnyx Formula Junior
    Owner

    May 28, 2012
    407
    Round Rock, TX
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    Jeff
    I'm fairly certain Moorespeed can do it. If not, then Ferrari of Austin should be able to.
     
  24. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    Jun 2, 2013
    432
    Sydney
    How did you go with the flywheel seal that you asked about earlier in another post? I thought the exact same thing when i rebuilt mine. There was no seal in there when i pulled it apart. Good work on yours though, looks great!
     
  25. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
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    Scott
    Yes, I verified with MD clutches that there is no inner seal, dust cover, or any other measure of protection.

    Still waiting for some reply about a shop who can competently regrind the flywheel, if you had yours done help us all out and let us know who did it!!!!
     
  26. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    Jun 2, 2013
    432
    Sydney
    Sweet. Glad to hear that! I actually purchased a new flywheel from MD. Great service from those guys!
     
  27. Subarubrat

    Subarubrat Formula 3

    Apr 1, 2009
    2,071
    VA
    Full Name:
    Scott
    #25 Subarubrat, Jan 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Got my flywheel done today, from a very unlikely source. Car Quest has a machine shop with the proper grinder and was able to o the job on the spot and the cost was only $55 which was a bonus score.

    I installed my pump bracket today, I made it strong enough to be used as a jacking point which was overkill but I didn't want any vibration. I also got my F1 indicator overhauled to fix some missing segments and it is re-installed. Next up is to reinstall the hydraulic lines and finish the plumbing, then onto the Hill throwout bearing.
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