F1 Pump Actuator Question. | FerrariChat
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F1 Pump Actuator Question.

Discussion in '360/430' started by mikelong, Mar 18, 2014.

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  1. mikelong

    mikelong Karting

    Dec 17, 2012
    115
    #1 mikelong, Mar 18, 2014
    While I am waiting for my F1 relay and working the pump motor itself...I have a question on the F1 actuator, if someone can educate me, greatly appreciate.
    The actuator I'm point out the the one with the 6 solenoids on the side, a pressure sensor, and that big black ball (I refer to as an Accumulator, and please correct me if I'm wrong) on top of it. I suppose that "big black ball"(accumulator) is filled with nydrogen? or some sort of pressure gas charge? that's one question. LOL. :)
    There are 6 solenoids attach this assembly, are those 6 solenoids to activate each gear? that's two question. LOL :).
    Howcome there are only 5 pressure lines going out on that assembly down to the shift mechanism at the tranny?...

    On a different note. Last time I had fuel issue on my car. I taped two fuel gauges at the fuel pressure test schradder valves. Kinda nice to know what my fuel pressure are at. I am thinking of tapping a hydraulic gauge (0-3000psi) at the pressure switch of the F1 pump actuator...If anything on the F1 hydraulic system fail, at least I will have a slight idea weather its mechanical or eletrical...huh?
     
  2. mikelong

    mikelong Karting

    Dec 17, 2012
    115
    #2 mikelong, Mar 19, 2014
    Come on Alan...Lol, chime me in on this would yah? :)
     
  3. steelej

    steelej Formula Junior

    Jan 15, 2007
    433
    UK
    #3 steelej, Mar 19, 2014
    The big black ball is the accumulator which holds the pressure charge, no gas in there as far as I know, the valves are the power unit which goes down to the actuator(shifter). There's only 5 pipes to the actuator as one controls the actuation of the clutch, so goes to the clutch :) multiple valves actuate per gear.

    John.
     
  4. mikelong

    mikelong Karting

    Dec 17, 2012
    115
    #4 mikelong, Mar 19, 2014
    Thank you John.
    I just thought about it today...although I could be wrong...The six solenoids attach to the side of the pump unit along side downward from the accumulator, perhaps that's what signal to the TCU and also the the dash board to indicating the gear that is in when shift.
    Or perhaps the TCU is giving command to those solenoids to open and close the fluid passage to shift the gears as request by the driver?
    Am I getting too technical???sorry...LOL LOL LOL :)
     
  5. steelej

    steelej Formula Junior

    Jan 15, 2007
    433
    UK
    #5 steelej, Mar 20, 2014
    The TCU will be commanding the valves to actuate the gear it wants to select. There are two sensors on the actuator itself one is the gear engagement potentiometer and the other is the gear selection potentiometer, so the input from these sensors will tell the TCU if a gear is engaged and what gear that is. :)

    John.
     
  6. Stout

    Stout Formula Junior

    May 9, 2013
    259
    Helotes, TX
    Full Name:
    Victor
    #6 Stout, Mar 20, 2014
    The accumulator should have a rubber bag inside of it for the hydraulic fluid to "accumulate". Above or around the bag is typically Nitrogen under pressure to offset the hydraulic pressure in the bag. Since you cannot compress a liquid, the bag fills under pressure from the pump. It is full when the Nitrogen pressure pushing against the bag is equal to the hydraulic pressure trying to fill the bag.

    The F1 pump primes the accumulator which is what you hear when the drivers door is opened. It stores the hydraulic energy like a battery stores electricity. It also acts somewhat like a shock absorber to cushion the effects of sudden drops and spikes in the hydraulic pressure.

    If the rubber bag fails, then the Nitrogen will eventually be absorbed into the hydraulic system and will bleed off. There will be no reserve in hydraulic pressure the system will reach reach and deplete operating pressure very quickly because fluid cannot be compressed. Basically the pump would run very often for very short periods of time. The pressure would drop with each use of pressure and then be below the requirement threshold throwing an alarm.

    The best example I've seen of an accumulator failure is the hydraulic rear shocks on a 456 or Mercedes S500. The back of the car just gets rock hard with no compression or rebound.
     
  7. mikelong

    mikelong Karting

    Dec 17, 2012
    115
    #7 mikelong, Mar 20, 2014
    Yes Stout...very interesting, I google it and learn abit more about it too. Two type of accumulators: bladder and piston...
    Understanding the components functionality; when and how, can help accurately trouble shoot and repair problem(s) when it comes.
    John, I look at the schematic(xploded parts view) and I totally understand what you said on the electrical portion of it. But what about the mechanical portion of it? what component(s) open and close the hydraulic passage/pressure down the tranny to move/shift those lever/gears?
    This weekend I will remove the F1 pump and go to a local shop to have them "re-coil" it...I confirm; that pump is bad when it gets hot...I gave it power and ground at the pump harness and it struggle to turn run, I can hear it. I am still waiting for the hydraulic gauge(I intend to tap inline at the pressure switch) and the 70amp relay(I have to do some change at the plug to adapt a "non Ferrari" relay). I will take some pics and post it up, just for entertainment...
     
  8. Stout

    Stout Formula Junior

    May 9, 2013
    259
    Helotes, TX
    Full Name:
    Victor
    #8 Stout, Mar 20, 2014
    I wish you luck on the rewinding of the pump motor. High amp DC motors are very hard on the windings. There is a guy on Ebay close to Houston that sells a new pump for about $450. Or look for an Alfa Romeo Salespeed pump on Euro Ebay. They are cheaper and the same part.
     
  9. Stout

    Stout Formula Junior

    May 9, 2013
    259
    Helotes, TX
    Full Name:
    Victor
    #9 Stout, Mar 20, 2014
  10. RonnieRenaldi

    RonnieRenaldi F1 Rookie

    Aug 16, 2004
    2,686
    #10 RonnieRenaldi, Mar 21, 2014
    Is it normal for the F1 pump to prime the accumulator often (while driving the car)?
     
  11. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2013
    2,158
    Piedmont Area of NC
    Full Name:
    Alan
    #11 English Rebel, Mar 21, 2014
    If the pressure drops below the set limit (due to you changing gears) then yes -- it has to maintain that pressure. Priming isn't the correct term -- pressurizing is more appropriate as priming suggests that it's empty.
    Alan
     
  12. mikelong

    mikelong Karting

    Dec 17, 2012
    115
    #12 mikelong, Mar 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thank you very much for the resources. I did stumble across that website and pump price to...Not bad at all.
    What I am attempting here is not solely about cost, but more so on education side. I want to see the dominant side of Ferrari. LOL. Don't get me wrong, they built great cars, but kinda unreliable on certain area, (interior trim pieces quality are poor, in my opinion).
    Anyways, here are a few pics of what I did today. Extract to fluid out with a fluid pump extractor, removed the F1 pump, removed the "vane" or "fluid" portion away from the electric portion, went to the local electrica shop(Autoelectric). Dammit, they moved...So, now I'm hunting for another shop to do it...:(
    During this process I notice fluid had when thru the 1st seal of the "Vane" portion of the pump and got to the seal of the electrical portion of the pump.
    I will purchase another pump for a spare on hand....If I can't find anyone local to overhaul the old pump, I will disassemble it and look inside....Yeah!!! fun time...LOL. I love taking things apart....
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  13. Stout

    Stout Formula Junior

    May 9, 2013
    259
    Helotes, TX
    Full Name:
    Victor
    #13 Stout, Mar 21, 2014
    The pump motor is typically removed while leaving actual pump in the car still attached to the hydraulic system. Less mess.
     
  14. mikelong

    mikelong Karting

    Dec 17, 2012
    115
    #14 mikelong, Mar 21, 2014
    You are absolutely correct...Didn't realize that until I removed the entire unit out.:( but that's ok, I didn't made too much of a mess.
    That is also a very good tip, when replace the electric pump motor. That way you don't have to worry about bleeding the system and or air gets into the system. I have to bleed the system after I get the pump install.
    VERY GOOD POINT OUT, STOUT....
    In addition, ther are 4screws on the Vane pump portion. 2 are "alen" head, and two are "torx" head. DO NOT remove the "alen" head!!! you will disassemble the vane pump! The torx head screws are actually the ones that hold the Vane to the Electric portion of the pump.
    Hopefully, this will help to make some else job easier next time...LOL :) cheer.
     
  15. Stout

    Stout Formula Junior

    May 9, 2013
    259
    Helotes, TX
    Full Name:
    Victor
    #15 Stout, Mar 21, 2014
    As I understand it, the F1 hydraulic system will self prime. Just reinstall the pump and run it. No bleeding required.
     
  16. mikelong

    mikelong Karting

    Dec 17, 2012
    115
    #16 mikelong, Mar 21, 2014
    Cool!!! that's even better....
     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,073
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    #17 tazandjan, Mar 22, 2014
    No, no, no, the F1 pump will not self-prime. That is an old wives' tale we cannot seem to kill. Once you break that seal, air is introduced into the system and needs to be bled using an SD2. Talk to your Ferrari tech and get the real story.
     
  18. mikelong

    mikelong Karting

    Dec 17, 2012
    115
    #18 mikelong, Mar 22, 2014
    Will do, thanks Terry....
    I thought I remember a thread about bleeding the F1 system. But anyways, I will soon get to it. I will drop off the motor to Rod at the local Electrical rebuild specialist here on Monday. Meanwhile I will get that info and pass it on when I have it about bleeding F1 system or not...
    I am looking into buying another pump too, just for a spare incase if the rebuild is not successful.
     
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,073
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    #19 tazandjan, Mar 22, 2014
  20. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 12, 2013
    5,470
    CA Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Steve
    #20 mello, Mar 22, 2014
    I have sent you a PM. :)
     

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