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F1 pump reservoir empty

Discussion in '360/430' started by norphaedrus, Dec 28, 2021.

  1. norphaedrus

    norphaedrus Rookie

    Sep 26, 2011
    25
    Atlanta
    Hate to post another F1 pump thread, but most center around overfilling or not full enough, but I notice mine is completely empty even after sitting overnight. Hoping someone might know a plausible explanation outside of accepting there is likely a leak. If I touch the disk i get a bit of oil on the finger tip - certainlu not even to the beginning of my finger nail.

    This is a 430 Scuderia. I can hear the pump run for about 4-5 seconds when the driver door is opened. There are no codes or indicators in the multi-function display. I only looked as I felt like the pump runs about every 2-3 gear changes under spirited driving.

    This is a picture after the car has sat without door opened for 20 hours.

    Any feedback is appreciated.
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  3. Extreme1

    Extreme1 Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2017
    848
    Santa Clarita, CA
    It can’t be completely empty if the pump is running, then shutting off. If it was completely empty the pump would run continuously.
    It sounds like the fluid level is just below the baffle that you can see in the picture. I would check for leaks under the car and top off the fluid. You’ll only need to add a little. The fluid level should be to the top of your fingernail above that baffle.
    I’m sure you didn’t do any damage to anything, but may have a leak. Or the last person to check it didn’t check it correctly.


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  4. norphaedrus

    norphaedrus Rookie

    Sep 26, 2011
    25
    Atlanta
  5. norphaedrus

    norphaedrus Rookie

    Sep 26, 2011
    25
    Atlanta
    Also, after overnight shouldn't the fluid be well above a fingernail - closer to the bottom of the reservoir, no? Or does it take longer for the pressure to drop and the resevoir to fill?
     
  6. Skippr1999

    Skippr1999 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2009
    3,645
    FYI, on my 355 it can take longer than overnight for the fluid to go back into the resovoir. Not sure why, but it does happen. I would put a small amount of fluid in )5mm) above the baffle/plate you can see and check it again in a few days.
     
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  8. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2016
    4,350
    Uk
    Overnight the fluid level should revert to near the top as the pressure falls away. With the drivers door open it should pressure up and be 18 mm above the plate. Are you sure the pump is not cutting in overnight due to a faulty door switch or other reason. There is a fuse behind the seats, if you remove this it will stop the pump from running, fill the tank with 18 mm over the plate and see if it rises to the top overnight.
    If you look at the tank the plate is at about 1/2 height so you should still have about 180 ccs to plate level.
    The owners manual lists 2 different fluids for the power steering and the F1 system, you can use the F1 oil in both as a higher spec than power steering
     
  9. flash32

    flash32 F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2008
    3,785
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    if you want to depressurize the system, open hatch, turn key off , close door wait a few then turn nut type screw on power unit and immediately close after pressure is released
     
  10. Extreme1

    Extreme1 Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2017
    848
    Santa Clarita, CA
    I use Mobil 1 ATF in mine. I bought the car 2 years ago and the service records didn’t indicate what was previously used.
    The color and consistency matches the ATF and it’s been working good for me. I used my Launch to do a bleed/flush of the system.


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  11. Extreme1

    Extreme1 Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2017
    848
    Santa Clarita, CA
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  13. flash32

    flash32 F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2008
    3,785
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Check the color of what's in there ..if red Mobil 1 sync att is fine..if green or amber ask dealer to top off or pick up some at dealer who did the work ..you don't want to mix ATF with other hydraulic fluids like CHF

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  14. Extreme1

    Extreme1 Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2017
    848
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Did you figure out what was happening? I’m curious. Did you have a leak?


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  15. norphaedrus

    norphaedrus Rookie

    Sep 26, 2011
    25
    Atlanta
    I will take the car in for service and to check a few things. Some good guidance above and I appreciate everyone's feedback. Unfortunately with the fluid level below the disk I cannot even swipe the disk enough to see what color the existing fluid is.

    I wouldn't have even looked except a couple of observations had me researching this forum. One was the amount it was pumping which seems weird, but admittedly I am no F1 pump expert. The other was maybe 1 out of 10 stops it will drop into neutral instead of 1st. This is not after a long stop this is before the car even gets to a complete stop. The next stop light will be normal.

    I did start the car yesterday and notice that at just idle I can hear the pump for 1 to 1.5 seconds every 1 minute.

    Once properly diagnosed I will respond back.
     
  16. flash32

    flash32 F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2008
    3,785
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Your last statement and the fact the fluid is low all point to a failed accumulator especially if no leaks and you don't ring level to proper level

    1 second is too short .. when the diaphragm fails the fluid fills the gap this a lower level

    Again this is assuming the level was good at some point and no external leaks

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  17. mike32

    mike32 F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2016
    4,350
    Uk
    Do you have 18 mms above the plate with system pressurised ?
     
  18. flash32

    flash32 F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2008
    3,785
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Correcting some typos ..sorry

    .. especially if you have no leaks and fluid is/ was at a proper level at one point

    When the diaphragm fails in an accumulator.. the fluid fills the gap and causes a lower level in reservoir

    A quick check to see if accumulator is bad is to turn key to on position and wait a few minutes ..note duration of pump cycles .. also after that test with key still on shift into first and neutral and reverse noting how many shifts before pump cycles and duration of pump "on"

    Report that back here and we can fairly diagnosis if the accumulator is the issue

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  19. norphaedrus

    norphaedrus Rookie

    Sep 26, 2011
    25
    Atlanta
    @flash32

    Thanks for the tip here.

    So with on position, I didn't hear anything after the initial sound from opening the door. Waited for a few minutes (not timed) and decided to put it into N and heard the pump right away for 1 second. Within 5 seconds I put into R and heard nothing. In another 5 seconds I put it back into 1 and heard the pump again for 1 second. Putting back into N I heard nothing and I just let it sit and added more patience. After 5:19 I heard the pump again for 1 second.
     
  20. flash32

    flash32 F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2008
    3,785
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Ok .. definitely is pointing to the accumulator if the level was good at some point and no external leaks which based on your comments that is the case

    I would release the pressure as i mentioned in a prior post and see what color it is .. if red add Mobil one ATF and see if problem still exists ..if it does it is 99.99% accumulator

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    redcarz and Extreme1 like this.

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