430 - F1 Pump Self Destructed and Metal Shavings in System | FerrariChat

430 F1 Pump Self Destructed and Metal Shavings in System

Discussion in '360/430' started by 1949live, May 16, 2022.

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  1. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    116
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Just had my day ruined when my indi called to let me know that the EDIF issues i was having was due to the F1 pump self destructing and sent metal shavings into the system, in this case clogging the F1 solenoid. I did read once from fahlmanb that he had the same issue - I've PM'd him for some info. My question is how can one flush the system to ensure you get all the metal shavings out? My indi has never done this before and seems not to have confidence it can be 100% successful, which of course would cause yet more damage after the costly repairs and the pump replacement. He talked about just sending brake solvent through the system, which he claims won't damage the seals, but again i'm a bit skeptical. Anyone have any experience with this or any thoughts?

    Secondly, in addition to replacing the pump what other parts would you suggest needs replacing, assuming the part cannot be cleaned?

    Thanks much.
     
  2. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,945
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    #2 flash32, May 16, 2022
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
    Disclaimer - never did this but looking at the diagrams and knowing the F1 system and e-diff system pretty well I will venture on what maybe a little much but here it goes

    The WSM describes how to flush the e-diff .. plugging the solenoid and having a valve on return line which you open to flush fluid in a bucket
    Then I would remove the actuator and loosen screws and have return line feed in a bucket while using diag tool to bleed actuator .. would need a valve as well to control flow
    Then just flush clutch a few times

    Each one needs attention to make sure fluid is always topped off

    Even with all this done .. any particles already in power unit body with all solenoids may have already caused damage to solenoid valve ( not sure how sensitive they are)

    As I said .. a little extreme but the only way to flush it truly out minus removing all pipes/lines and draining them / cleaning them on bench ..even with that the ediff needs to be cleaned/flushed as stated above ..

    I would just use ATF fluid and stay away from anything else
     
  3. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    brake fluid flush through an ATF fluid system!

    I would wait for fahlmanb to get back to you with his experience, and while waiting for him I would find a more skilled mechanic who knows the Ferrari systems like Dave Helms who is in your general area.
     
  4. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    116
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Thanks. I agree - cleaning the EDIF and the F1 valve body is my biggest concern. Let's see what other thoughts are posted.
     
  5. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2018
    5,725
    Houston
    Full Name:
    One4torque
    Gated swap!
     
  6. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    Draining out a bit of fluid for a visual or lab analysis may tell you the extent of particles that might be in the system before the expense of tearing it all out
     
  7. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    116
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    A gated machine still needs the pump etc for the EDIF.
     
  8. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    116
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    We did drain the fluid, and there are tiny particles swimming in it. As mentioned, the EDIF valve was alerted to this issue as it was stuck closed due to the particles.
     
  9. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
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    Greg Calo
    UGH

    Sorry to hear this

    I would contact Dave Helms
     
  10. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,945
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    #10 flash32, May 16, 2022
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
    The least i would do is depressurized the system ..suck as much out .. put new in.. pressurized the system and release pressure using screw relief valve in valve body so that the fluid go back in the reservoir.. removing fuse before releasing..do a few times and then make sure whatever you do replace / clean screen in feed line to pump

    Do several clutch bleeds after this.

    But i still feel the biggest risk is the ediff so follow the wsm on how to flush that after above as well

    This is the minimum I would do for my car

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  11. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    116
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Great idea - will do. Thanks.
     
  12. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,945
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    The least I would do

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  13. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,962
    Isle of man- uk
    Think about fitting a temporary inline hydraulic filter after you flush the system, to catch anything you missed
     
    KC360 FL and flash32 like this.
  14. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    116
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Good idea. Will discuss when I decide where to do the work. Thanks.
     
  15. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    1,153
    The reservoir already has a larger filter in it. When you look in to the reservoir and see the silver plate that is the top of the filter. What were your original symptoms?
    Ediff solenoids are prone to internal leaking causing excessive pump on time. drain system, remove shift actuator from gearbox but leave hooked up. Open bleed screws and perform bleed procedure,
    Bleed clutch circuit and finally bleed Ediff circuit. Install new reservoir and bleed the hydraulic control unit. Install new ediff solenoid and bleed.
    If your Indy isn't equipped or familiar with how to do this find someone who is.
    This is a common occurrence and not really anything to freak out about, we do three or four a year.
    Often this will result in leakage from the rear of the shift actuator as well due to worn seals, either rebuild it now or wait for it to actively leak and rebuild it then.
     
    flash32 likes this.
  16. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,945
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    @windsock

    Don't forget screen in inlet line

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  17. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    1,153

    filter in the reservoir is 3 micron. The inlet to the pump is 30. I've never seen any debris in the small white inlet screen at the pump unless someone is careless with the system open.
     
  18. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    116
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Thanks for the details. As i mentioned, the issue was found due to an EDIF error, but when the system was opened metal slivers were found in the oil. And in particular the slivers were clogging the EDIF solenoid and locking it up.
     
  19. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,945
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    If debris was found in the ediff ..the debris would be brought back thru return line under the reservoir (y pipe )!and could have made debris into filter.. i guess I just want to make aware of another filter

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  20. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,945
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    @windsock

    would you know if the filter you mention in reservoir also filters return fluid from y-pipe below or just fluid enter from top
    If it does please disregard my prev post
     
  21. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    1,153

    Everything is returned to the reservoir through the filter and then into the pump. Unless someone is careless all the returned fluid should go through the filter in the reservoir.
     
  22. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    6,945
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    Thanks

    That makes the cleanup easier .. since it somewhat self cleaning as long as you do proper bleeding as you mentioned

    Thanks .. now I know more than I did this morning ..thank you

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  23. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    116
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Thanks. FYI i am taking the car up to Dave's shop. They are confident they can handle the project. Much thanks to all the commentators.
     
  24. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
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    Greg Calo
    That is the best thing to do.

    Dave is a very attentive mechanic.

    He will set you straight
     

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