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F1 pump starting to failure

Discussion in '348/355' started by taz355, Mar 8, 2017.

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  1. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    #1 taz355, Mar 8, 2017
    So went for a drive today, first fairly hot day and my F1 motor finally failed. For the stock motor on the pump although it failed I am still fairly impressed how long its lasted after 10 plus years and thousands of gzear shifts.

    Anyway it gets hot then stops working. I originally thought it was water after the car wash even though water has never been a problem in the past. It was not because of the heat it started to fail.

    When it failed I poured water on it and let it sit 5 minutes and it worked fine.

    Jist thought I would post a temporary solution for those of you who have an F1.

    If the motor quits and is hot(they are allways hot if you have been driving) let it cool off somehow and it may work.


    The motor was only drawing 6 to 7 amps when cold and worked fine for over 100 shifts while parked, engine off.

    It did take over 19 flashes of warning light when left for 24 hrs to prime but after 3 or four hours only took 13 or less flashes.

    It used to only take 13 or so in november and about 1500 miles ago.

    It still works when cold but essentially has failed.
     
  2. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    #2 yelcab, Mar 8, 2017
    Grant

    It's time you upgrade to a 6 speed manual gear box....

    (duck, cover, and laughing all the way to my garage)
     
  3. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    #3 Roth, Mar 8, 2017
    Tazz post pics of the motor from different angles. If you do an upgrade and have no need for it, I like to take a look at it. I need the motor type and operating characteristics. I may be able to get it repair or find a better designed replacement motor. Either case I'll give the motor back. Hopefully working. :)
     
  4. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    #4 Dave rocks, Mar 8, 2017
  5. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 WATSON, Mar 8, 2017
    As Dave posted, just install the 360 version. In today's world it is an easy, necessary change.

    Amazed it lasted as long as it did actually.
     
  6. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    #6 Dave rocks, Mar 8, 2017
    Grant, per our emails, I bought a 430 motor and will make an adapter during my next major.

    Hopefully, you can obtain a new proper motor. No 360 conversation in my future - just not needed IMHO
     
  7. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 World Champ
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    #7 Steve355F1, Mar 9, 2017
  8. JSBMD

    JSBMD Formula Junior

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    #8 JSBMD, Mar 10, 2017
    Last time my (360) pump wore out, the earliest signs were its' inability to perform multiple fast downshifts. It would do 1 or 2 successful downshifts, then go to neutral. It still lasted several hundred miles, never left me stranded, but as it got worse and worse, it jumped to neutral more and more. It was clearly time for replacement. (Note: my clutch was new when this was happening, so I knew it was most likely pump-related, not clutch, but otherwise clutch failing will lead to failed shifts too-- this highlights the value of proper diagnosis in the F1 cars.)

    $400 eBay pump, an hour in my own garage, and it was good as new again. That's perhaps the best aspect of the 360 conversion.
     
  9. tres55

    tres55 F1 Rookie
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    #9 tres55, Mar 10, 2017
    Time to upgrade to the 360 pump. It'll prime a lot faster and works better overall under load/heat.
     
  10. tres55

    tres55 F1 Rookie
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    #10 tres55, Mar 10, 2017
    You're putting an F430 pump in the 355?
     
  11. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    #11 Dave rocks, Mar 10, 2017
    See the link in post #4 :)
     
  12. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 WATSON, Mar 10, 2017
    Is the 430 pump less expensive? Or more OEM look? Or both?
     
  13. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    #13 taz355, Mar 11, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
    Thanks for all the replies but I got a new 355 motor prototype that is bolt in per Daves and my discussions.

    Steve the motor gets hot and wont start. Last time When I was testing things and it went I poured cold water over the F1 motor started the car and it shifted all the way home. It would not shift seconds earlier.

    I figured it was the heat because after leaving it over night I tested it without car running and shifted hundreds of times before going on my test drive.

    Motor was only drawing about 6 amps when cold
    Light for pump charge in morning had changed from 13 flashes to 20.
     
  14. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 World Champ
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    #14 Steve355F1, Mar 11, 2017
    Ah, ok. Good luck and hopefully this solves the problem.
     
  15. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    #15 taz355, Mar 11, 2017
    It would bemore oem because the pumo and accumulator would remain.
    Same thing I am doing but I will be using a new 355 motor.
     
  16. Juri

    Juri Formula Junior
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    #16 Juri, Mar 12, 2017
    If you are interested, I have been developing a direct bolt-on motor for 355F1 pump, whcih works very well. Send me a PM if interested.
     
  17. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #17 WATSON, Mar 12, 2017
    Your PM is full :)

    I need a 360 motor. PM if you have them available.
     
  18. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    #18 Roth, Mar 12, 2017
    I'm curious to know how you guys are getting the amp reading from the pump motor. Please explain. Thanks
     
  19. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    #19 taz355, Mar 12, 2017
    At the back where the motor plugs in with a meter.
     
  20. Roth

    Roth Formula Junior

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    #20 Roth, Mar 12, 2017
    AC power oscillates. The presence of AC voltage and current running through a conductor cause a magnetic field to generate and collapses around the conductor 60 times a second. Hint, the 60hz(U.S.) label on electrical devices. If another closed loop conductor is placed next it, voltage and current will induce. This fact makes it easy to measure current in an AC circuit by placing an amp probe of a multimeter next to it. DC power is entirely different. It does not generate an oscillating magnetic field around the conductor it runs through. To get an accurate reading, an amp meter has to be in series of the load. Furthermore, I'm almost certain the current reading of the pump motor while the car is not running(moving) is a true reading since the F1 system is at idle. Hence, the hydraulic pressure is constant. In my opinion, an amp meter has to connect in series with the pump. Record the reading at idle and while the car is moving utilizing the F1 system.

    Compressor and pump motors demand a lot of torque. They are usually series wound motors where the current drawn fluctuates depending on the load. A motor that is running hotter than normal is drawing constant high current. A few reasons maybe the cause. 1) there is a failure in the load. perhaps a leak on the hydraulic system. The motor runs overtime trying to sustain pressure. 2) the parts within the motor fail. Worn out brushes. Worn out commutators. One or more windings shorted out.

    I've been trying to assess the weakest link in the motor design but I have yet to see one:)
     
  21. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    #21 taz355, Mar 12, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
    The weak link in my opinion is the headers and exhaust running closely to it, and the lack of available heat shielding.

    I used an dc inductive meter. Checked it with the car off and F1 pump engauged during many many shift cycles.

    I will check it when I get home once it is hot and see the actual differance or better yet try to make it fail.

    I know it was heat related because cold water cured it instantly.

    To do a contactless measurement with the clamp ring my ammeter uses a hall effect device to measure the axial magnetic field generated in the wire by current flowing through it. The clamp surrounds the wire, which is creating a magnetic field around it according to Ampere's Law. The magnetic field is concentrated by an iron core contained in the clamp. The magnetic field is sensed at an air gap that contains a semiconductor hall effect detector. Current flowing through the silicon chip is deflected by the magnetic field creating a voltage perpendicular to the direction of electron flow. This voltage is detected and converted to amps by the internal microprocessor and displayed on the LCD panel.

    This is the best I can explain!!
     
  22. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

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    #22 cheesey, Mar 12, 2017
    just curious what the windings look like in the failed motors, marginal (low voltage ) starts with batteries out of spec ( on occasional use cars, that many have issues keeping fully charged ) would allow greater current flow leading to excessive heat and eventual break down in the motor's windings... possibly another reason to use battery maintainers
     
  23. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    #23 taz355, Mar 12, 2017
    Personally a 18 year old car with the original electric motor I think has worked pretty good.

    My guess is the ones that fail within 5 years is due to improperly maintained F1 systems that leak causing the pump cycles to increase exponentially.

    If you are driving down the highway for hours in 6 gear the pump should never even come on.

    It could also be from the accumulators not being sealed anymore causing the same issue.
     

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