"F1 should drop V6s for old V8 engines - Red Bull's Christian Horner"

He has a point.

The old V8 engines were cheaper, more reliable, and sounded better. I'd go back to the old V8s in a heartbeat. When I attended Silverstone, it was more impressive heading the GP2 cars roar by than it was to hear the F1 cars - even though the F1 cars were much faster.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Forget all this nonsense about going back to the old 2.4 V8's! - It simply isn't going to happen!

I had to laugh when I read Toto Wolfe's comments on all of this (from: Mercedes fears rivals risk harming F1 - Formula 1 - Eurosport Australia ):

Mercedes motorsport boss Toto Wolff says his team's rivals risk damaging Formula 1 if they push ahead with the threat of an all-out engine war.

Amid mounting frustrations at Mercedes' reluctance to accept a relaxing of F1's engine freeze rules for next year, teams with rival engine suppliers are considering a bloc vote to lift development restrictions totally for 2016.


Wolff believes that such a move would be disastrous for F1, and shows that some teams were putting their own interests above those of the sport.

"You're looking at it being too narrow for your own team's performance and not considering what's going on around you and in Formula 1. "




And by refusing to agree to ending the engine freeze he's not putting the interests of his own team before those of the sport?

Mercedes and Wolfe don't want to the freeze on engine development to end because they are concerned that they could lose their advantage over their rivals - It's got nothing to do with concerns about spiralling costs!

My suspicion is that they had thought that they would be able to carry this advantage out for at least 3~4years and dominate F1.
Now though, there is a real risk that after 2015, the other engine manufacturers will force through an end to the engine freeze and have a real chance of closing the gap to Mercedes.

Mercedes need to head this off at the pass and so are going to make big noises about the other manufacturers being selfish and putting their own needs first, damaging the sport, and escalating costs at an unsustainable rate, in the hope that the FIA will step in and prevent any lifting of the engine freeze, hence: (From: Mercedes fears rivals risk harming F1 - Formula 1 - Eurosport Australia )

"I guess the FIA has a say in that and the F1 Commission is going to make the decisions, either by a unanimous decision next year or a majority decision for the year afterwards.

"And we are going to be very vocal in describing and laying out our standpoint and then let's see what happens."

Wolff has reiterated that Mercedes is against lifting the freeze because it fears that costs could escalate too much next year.

"We very much believe that we can't take any foolish decisions that would increase the costs for everybody," he said. "We need to keep that under control.

"We owe it to the teams that went out of business and we have to stay reasonable."

To My mind, you don't have to be a chess Grandmaster to see what the real plan is here!

 

Exactly now get to bed .

 

I guess if you can't defeat MBz on the track you just kill their engine...uh, "power unit".... in the technical regulations, eh, Chrissie?

 

LOL at Merc/Wolfe. They spend like there's no tomorrow with an engine development team 4 times the size Ferrari and now they are worried about costs to make changes. How stupid do they think people are?

 

I can see how Merc don't want to give up the regs that were created for them. But the fan has spoken already, they're not interested in production car racing, they want F1

 

Are you serious?? Just an engine for these F1 cars is 2.5 million bucks? How? How is it even remotely possible?

 

Obviously they can construct an engine for less, but their recouping all the development costs of going from naturally aspirated V8s (with separate KERS) to turbocharged hybrid V6s.

F1 is going to have to stop implementing all these cost-cutting regulations, the teams just can't afford them.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Amen. Let them change the included angle of the V and run twin exhausts as well. Sound would considerably improve.
Pete

 

And at the same time in a recent post-race conference he went on to say that smaller teams have to spend responsibly within their budget and it is their own fault for overextending themselves and mismanaging their business.

This guy is a walking bag of contradictions lol.

 

Horner is every bit as disingenuous as Merc, maybe more so.

 

Getting rid of the fuelflow restriction would mean a complete redesign. Revs would increase. Air in increases... exhaust gases out increase. Stresses and heat go through the roof.

Every part of the engine was engineered to the parameter of limited fuel flow...

Turn up the fuel flow rate... These things wont last 2 laps.

 

I don't work Wednesdays in the run up to Christmas so it's not a problem!

Actually, the regs were changed because Renault demanded it (or Audi according to some), not Mercedes.

I seem to recall the fans saying that they didn't want the 3.0L V10's instead of the 3.5 V8 & V12's, and then they didn't want the 2.4 V8's instead of the 3.0L V10's! Now it's the V6's that they don't want!

F1 fans have never taken changes to the regulations very well but it has never stopped the FIA from implementing them, nor have they tended to go back on the changes that they've made.

 

The FIA will reverse changes if the money stops flowing. This formula is approaching crisis, I will be surprised if it survives more than another season.

 

Nope. Daimler board member confirmed Merc's position was to quit F1 if they didn't get the hybrid turbo they wanted. The original direct injection/turbo, which Ferrari agreed to, didn't have the hybrid carp.

Nope, 95 to 04 saw the greatest growth in F1 viewership. Diametrically opposed to the massive loss of viewership since the introduction of this disastrous new donk. You can stick your head in the sand and say everything is rosy, but believe me, the emperor has no clothes

What, you mean like going from NA to turbo then going back to NA ..... oh yeah

 

I think we are going to see just how big Bernie's balls are. The majority seem to insist on going backward to V8's for the sake of "the show" and "spectacle".

Fans would be happy, promoters would be happy, Red Bull would be happy, smaller teams would be happy, dare I say some in Maranello and so would the media that pay to broadcast the madness of it all.

Perhaps that means more to Bernie and CVC's bottom line than having Merc, Honda and Renault involved?

"Back to the future" as Bernie said recently.

 

They were larger before his divorce, I'm guessing.

 

Source please? Over the entire decade, you're probably right, but according to many here, Michaels domination was the worst thing to have ever happened to the sport and cost millions of eyeballs.

Not here in the States at least;

Sure, it's not all rosy, but that's the nature of the beast.....

Over the course of 30 years or so..... I'm sorry, but those who claim 'rules instability' is the downfall of F1 have no idea.... WEC, IMSA, SCCA, DTM, BTCC, etc, *all* mess with their rules way more than F1. Damn, Merc would be about twice as heavy as anyone else by now in those series. No thanks.

Cheers,
Ian

 

Good point.

 

That is a piss poor argument. You can blow and go all you want, but that fact is the sound/spectacle difference between these engines and the V8s is COLOSSAL. These are the quietest F1 engines of all time! The V12s sounded best but the V10s were still raucous and amazing. Same with the move from V10 to V8. The V8s were still plenty awesome to behold. The V8s to these things? A much, much bigger step backward from a fan's perspective than the other two.

A simple read through this thread confirms what the fans want. That much is obvious. And fellas, I'd wager that the opinions voiced on here are right in line with the millions of fans across the globe. Yes there are always a few people that say "well just deal with it or leave!" which is also a lame argument (and many fans already have done just that).

Bring back the noise, F1.

 

Bernie has never liked the turbo . Now he has the support of the fans and most teams to kill them and he will do it . This whole thing was broken about by some people to make f1 one more green the only green people in f1 care about is cash . If they open the engine rules it's going to cost a whole bunch of cash and not one team even ferrari what to spend more money on there f1 programs right now . It will die made in the next couple of weeks with a two tier championship that will stop all this bs quick . What good does it do for mercedes to beat Williams if they finish last to v 10 powered start up team with 950 + HP

 

A lot of people have the reason for this engine change wrong. It has nothing to do with being green, but all to do with being relevant to manufacturers current vehicles or technology.

IMO this is vital for F1 and any current series that does not view itself as an arm of historic racing. This change has actually raised my interest in F1 again because at last there is some interesting technology in these cars.

So if we go back to only combustion based engines, we are placing F1 in the same boat as NASCAR (pushrod based v8 engines I believe) and Historic racing. F1 cannot complete with Historic racing ... Historic racing is fncken awesomely interesting and diverse, plus how can F1 attract the rich and famous wannabees if not cutting edge.

The future for automobiles is the hybrid car. I would own one if I could find one that met my needs for the right price.
Pete
ps: This technology actually improves the overall performance of a F1 car too.

 

Lastly I can understand why many Americans have a dim view of the v6 engine. This is because no American manufacturer has every made a remotely decent one. The reason why is the forcing of the 90 degree included v angle so the decks of the blocks can be surfaced by the same machine as their v8 engines.

But the 120 or 60 degree v6 engine is a jewel. Ferrari and Alfa Rome in particular have made the most beautiful v6 engines that make v8's sound crude, etc. in comparison.
Pete

 

Indeed I am, the image below is from "Britain's Winning Formula: Achieving World Leadership in Motorsports (Beck-Burridge/Walton). And from this ESPN article From 95 German ave audience went from 5mil to over 10mil per race. Spain went from zero in 2002 to peaking over 10mil in '05.

So "many here" were out of step with the majority of F1 viewers

Good to hear, source please.

It wasn't before and I don't think we should ignore how the fan is voting.

I pointed out that rules have been reversed in F1. I have zero idea why you have side tracked that point onto people who blame "rule instability" for the demise of F1. Don't mean for that to sound harsh, so sorry bout that, just making the point.

Merc were given the exact engine they wanted, with all the hybrid carp they wanted to stop them from walking. And this is what it has lead to. Let's get a donk and competition back that will bring the fan back to f1. And if that means facing up to ugly facts and pulling some heads out of the sand then so be it.
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Have both engines. Win/win