F1 slipping on up-shifts when car hot | FerrariChat
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F1 slipping on up-shifts when car hot

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Jagbuff, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

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    #1 Jagbuff, Feb 29, 2012
    I have had this issue for quite a while and have been “driving around” it thinking it might be my driving style but it appears to be degrading (or I am more aware it)

    The car shift perfectly when cold, no slipping, firm shifts both in constant and full throttle. First gear take off is fast with minimal slipping (1-2 car lengths to full release).

    After 15-20 minutes (warm car) the shifting degrades with slippage when going from 3-4 and 4-5 shifts if I maintain constant throttle (no lift). The RPM increase and the clutch slips for a couple of seconds until it bites again – if I apply more throttle during those couple of seconds that revs will jump (massive slipping) – if I back off throttle the clutch bites “immediately” and there is no slip. No slipping noticed when I shift down. I have driven around the problem by backing off throttle during up shifts, that’s ok on the road but on the track it’s not workable. I have not noticed any slipping in any gears once clutch is fully engaged.

    Additional information:
    Car is a 360CS
    Clutch replaced about 3K miles by independent prior to purchase.
    Car was delivered to me and had a problem with 1st gear dropping or not engaging – TCU showed no errors.
    F1 relay and pump were replaced but did not solve problem and eventually (after many other trial and error) F1 actuator was replaced, however; the SD2 F1 ”learning sequence” would fail so another F1 car was used to do the “learning sequence” and the actuator was installed back in my car. After having the car off the road for 8 weeks, this seemed to solve the 1st gear problem.

    Anyway, those repairs cost me a fair amount and got the car running again so I was thrilled (new to me toy) but I am wondering if there is another underlying issue that was not addressed (why learn sequence failed?), and since it’s been almost 12 months, I want to reengage the independent appropriately. Any suggestions as to what it might be?
     
  2. paulie_b

    paulie_b F1 Veteran
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    #2 paulie_b, Feb 29, 2012
    suggestion: you may want to post this in the 360/430 section also.
     
  3. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    #3 Mitch Alsup, Feb 29, 2012
    Clear case of worn out clutch disk (or oil on clutch disk).
     
  4. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

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    #4 Jagbuff, Feb 29, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
    after 3K miles - got the car with 50 miles on the clutch and don't think it's been abused enough to go through the clutch that quickly. Would oil on clutch affect slippage with temperature?
     
  5. brian.s

    brian.s F1 Rookie
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    #5 brian.s, Feb 29, 2012
    Just a thought, but was it a stock disc? Sounds typical of a Kevlar disc when new.........
     
  6. mowater

    mowater Formula Junior

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    #6 mowater, Feb 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    sounds very similar to my case, but my car is a 360, and it is going to Neutral
    best thing to do at this point imho is to hook it up to an SD3 and get a clutch wear reading and PIS reading. did you get those readings before purchase?

    my car had 67% wear when i first started having problems with jumping to Nuetral, and about 1,000 or so km later it was at 71%
    these are some pics i took a couple of days ago. guess which is the old clutch!! :)
    i am going to install a new OEM clutch although i did read positive things about aftermarket kevlar ones

    like you, going to Neutral was almost always between 3rd to 4th upshifts
    and rarely, perhaps only 10 times altogether in its 2,000km trips with me has happened when the car downshifts (or i do myself by downshifting manually)

    the clutch having had only 3K begs the question: is it OEM?
    also, from what i understand, these things need to be calibrated right
    so did the independent actually follow the clutch bleeding steps and then setting PIS correctly using the proper tools/computers?

    these may be trivial questions, but believe me, where i live, there is only one place other than the stealership that can address those issues so i learned to not look past common sense!
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  7. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    #7 Mitch Alsup, Feb 29, 2012
    Not breaking in the clutch can even cause this headache. You see, a new clutch disk is not prefectly flat and prefetcly thich around its surface that touches the flywheel or pressure plate. It takes a little while for the clutch to wear in and become the surface congruent to the FW and PP. UNTIL the clutch wears in it will not hold as much TQ as it will when the both whole surfaces are mated to FW and PP.

    Oil will ruin the clutch disk in a single second. So wil brake fluid.

    The key point to long clutch life is to never put power through the clutch while the clutch is in the friction zone. You introductory post indicates that you just rode these zones out with full power on. This can eat a clutch alive. It also eats the PP and FW alive at the same time.

    You stated: "After 15-20 minutes (warm car) the shifting degrades with slippage when going from 3-4 and 4-5 shifts if I maintain constant throttle (no lift). The RPM increase and the clutch slips for a couple of seconds until it bites again – if I apply more throttle during those couple of seconds that revs will jump (massive slipping) – if I back off throttle the clutch bites “immediately” and there is no slip."

    So, you basically admit you flat-footed the shift, the clutch did not grab, and you rode it out--presto instant severe clutch wear. Apparently you do this a lot.....
     
  8. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
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    #8 plugzit, Feb 29, 2012
    I thought lift was unneccessary with an F1 trans. I'm just a 5-speed guy, tho, so whaddoIknow?
     
  9. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

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    #9 Jagbuff, Feb 29, 2012
    Thanks for the suggestions, I don't know if it was OEM clutch but was done at a respected (by some F-chatter) independent in California so I would assume it was done correctly (based on price, part is OEM). It also spend some time at Ferrari of San Diego getting other work done and no codes were found and all setting were right. The local guy is very well regarded and deals with cars 10-20 times the price of the CS though this one turned out to be a real challenge. We went over the settings (PIS etc) everything was sorted but the learning sequence where he came up with a work around.
     
  10. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

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    #10 Jagbuff, Feb 29, 2012
    Mitch, unlike a manual the TCU will adjust for full throttle upshifts and you are not required to lift for shifts. This is very efficient on the track, hence my frustration in having to lift after less than 10 laps. My comment was to exemplify the problem based on a couple of experiments, not a reflection of regular or track driving - I don't believe that a few of over revs lasting a second or two would result in a clutch being destroyed or incurring significant clutch wear as it is no different than a spirited launch. I am pretty familiar with working of a clutch (have driven and raced manuals cars all my life) and somewhat mechanically inclined ;)
    I certainly appreciate the suggestion of oil on disk and will investigate further when I put the car on the lift. I also bring it around to Dave to do a reading on the clutch wear.

    Btw, did you get your car sorted after the gold kit upgrade, it was the best upgrade I did on my TR.
     
  11. zackspeed

    zackspeed Karting

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    #11 zackspeed, Mar 1, 2012
    Sounds like the release bearing is sticking/hanging up when everything is warmed up. Also don't know if or how the clutch was configured when it was new. Just setting the PIS doesn't let the tcu know that the clutch is new so unless the independent has an sd2 its most likely that he was unable to correctly complete the cycle test. Also I've seen many cars that just plain won't shift or even start and there will still be no codes in the tcu. they aren't very helpful. would be able to tell more with a tcu parameters printout.
     
  12. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    #12 Mitch Alsup, Mar 1, 2012
    Yes, my car seems to be running perfectly right now. {Kock on wood.}
     
  13. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    #13 rustybits, Mar 1, 2012
    I doubt it is sticking. If it's severe enough to cause a noticeable slip he would be getting a gearbox light on as well as an overheat buzzer. There would also be a clutch closed over-pis error stored. It sounds to me like a new clutch has been fitted to a car with a worn flywheel.
     
  14. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

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    #14 Jagbuff, Mar 1, 2012
    There is a work order for resurfacing of the flywheel, so that part was addressed (at least on paper), the clutch doesn't slip once it's fully engaged.
     
  15. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    #15 Michael B, Mar 1, 2012
    I really want you to get this resolved but when I saw your note about the flywheel resurfacing it got me wondering... Was it resurfaced too far? Beyond spec maybe?

    I have been thinking on this since I first read it. If it acts well when cold but then acts poorly when warm I started to assume TO bearing movement issues as well. But facing the facts: It really acts as if it has a clutch contact surface out of spec.

    That is where I am trying to deduct why it would do well when cold. A slipping clutch is a slipping clutch. From the beginning of the drive cycle till the end... But if the expansion & contraction is playing into this while being driven... I have seen stranger things.

    This may be a case where its just easier to pull the transaxle and look at it in hand.

    Keep us in the loop please.
     
  16. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

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    #16 Jagbuff, Mar 1, 2012
    Michael, I have gone through the same brain teaser and will probably end up down the suggested path of puling the tranny and having a look.

    I am leaning towards Mitch's suggestion of oil on the clutch, this might be aggravated by movement and heat (?), however; what gets me is that it seems to be worst where shifting from 4-5 versus other gears (maybe it's me...) which confuses the issue about oil on the disk as all gears should show similar slippage.

    I don't know enough about the F1 system to know whether engagement/disengagement of clutch is specific to each gear. If so, an incomplete/improper " learn sequence" might release the shifting too early, and cause overheating and ultimately slippage. This is pure speculation on my part, as my knowledge off the system is minimal.
     
  17. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    #17 rustybits, Mar 2, 2012
    It's obviously slipping when cold more than it should which is then generating exessive heat which increases the slip. The CS tcu has a high threshold before the clutch overheat buzzer cuts in, but my bet is that if you looked at the parameters there will be some clutch overheat time logged in there. There are several causes for this, but here are some that spring to mind:
    1.Incorrect clutch setup, usually caused by new closed clutch position not being set.
    2.Flywheel taper incorrectly ground (common) causing the plate to not make full contact.
    3.Oil leakage from bearing support tube or rear main.(easy to spot through inspectionplate)
    4.Sticking release bearing-easily spotted by "clutch closed over PIS error".

    Personaly, it sounds like it's a flywheel issue, but of course it's just an internet opinion!
    I wouldn't drive it toomuch until you find the cause, as you'll likely toast your clutch.
     
  18. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    #18 Michael B, Mar 2, 2012
    Well done Eddie. Its gotta be one of these things. None of them are super easy though by the looks of it.
     
  19. mowater

    mowater Formula Junior

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    #19 mowater, Mar 2, 2012
    I would listen to what Ed (rustybits) says, mate. :)

    On my car, I did have the error he mentioned once on the Skilltester 5 reading "Clutch closed over PIS" so that is what made me order the new parts for my car.

    I am also changing my flywheel and here is the thread where you can read why I think I am now in need of doing that.

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358207
     
  20. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

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    #20 Jagbuff, Mar 2, 2012

    Thanks - i'll keep everyone posted on the outcome - several projects underway so this one may take a few weeks before getting attention (guess I'll be driving others cars in the interim)
     
  21. ndg.performance

    ndg.performance Rookie

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    #21 ndg.performance, Mar 13, 2012
    From what I read I think your car need to re-pleading*for the F1 unit because that's what it do if there is an air mixed with the oil by the time its cold it working perfect and when it heat it will start doing this*
    problem.
     
  22. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    #22 rustybits, Mar 23, 2012
    Agree completely with this. Could also be that the flywheel is shot and wasn't replaced when the clutch was. That would also toast a clutch in no time.....
     

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