F1 to neutral when at a stop ligth.. | Page 2 | FerrariChat

F1 to neutral when at a stop ligth..

Discussion in '360/430' started by ferrari.ms, Sep 7, 2007.

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  1. RAllen

    RAllen Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2006
    445
    Rogue Valley, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Richard Allen
    Congrats back at ya & thx. :)

    Peace,

    Richard.
     
  2. lrattner

    lrattner Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2004
    390
    Delray Beach, Fl
    Full Name:
    Dr. Lonnie Rattner
    There is nothing as bad as finding yourself in harm's way and not having the capacity to do anything about it. I agree with Alex, the driver should have the ability to initiate immediate action when driving for whatever reason. I never allow the car to be out of gear unless I am at a complete stop. When approaching a light I will break (6-speeds are totally diofferent) and allow the tranny to shift me down and when and /if I reach a complete stop I double paddle into neutral. I am usually poised with my hand on the right paddle and foot on the brake to initiate a shift when the light turns (or that semi, that Alex aluded to is coming at me).
    If this style usues the clutch up a little faster than not, that is the way it is. After all, the car is a mechanical thing which will undergo wear as it is used and when and/ if it cost me $4k or so to get a new clutch, that's the way it goes. If I have to be afraid that the clutch is going to cost me $4k at 15,000 miles or 18,000 miles or whatever, I had no business getting the thing.
     
  3. E60 M5

    E60 M5 Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Jan 2, 2006
    8,061
    Wash DC area
    Full Name:
    Robert
    I have never smelled my clutch or anyone else with a F1 when on an incline. Are you sure you have your foot on the brake?? What your saying doesn't make sense. Why would the clutch be engaging and not engaging when the brake pedal is depressed, wether on a hill or not?? The car is stopped!

    The only time I have ever smelled the clutch is when some have tried backing up a hill in a F430, not a good thing.


    Robert
     
  4. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    Why does an automatic transmission have a torque converter?
     
  5. RAllen

    RAllen Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2006
    445
    Rogue Valley, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Richard Allen
    NoDoubt .... I just looked at your profile and did not see an F430F1 listed. All this time I thought you owned one and spoke from experience. It puzzled me. Now I wonder if you're not simply trolling. ;-)

    Seriously, i'm not trying to flame you. I'm just wondering why you're vehemently advocating driving techniques that make no sense at all; while claiming attributes which do not seem to exist ... in properly driven and properly functioning cars.

    Peace,

    Richard.
     
  6. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    Drivers disagree about driving techniques every day. That's why we have races rather than debates.

    Choose your techniques wisely, with the best information available.
     
  7. RAllen

    RAllen Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2006
    445
    Rogue Valley, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Richard Allen
    Excellent advice!!!

    As for techniques an racing .... <chuckle> i've been involved in motorsports for decades (but have done very little racing) i'm now getting older and crippled so racing's no longer much of an option. Plus there are are other reasons. One thing i've learned over the years .... there's ONE way to drive ANY partuicular vehicle fastest .... at ANY particular event.

    In fact, that's pretty much what I teach my Novice students. E.g. The fastest line thru any turn, at any track, never varies. How one drives the line (although track conditions do change, the line itself doesn't) depends on an ever changing host of factors. Which brings us back to the F1 tranny. There's only ONE way to drive properly under the conditions noted within the context of the OP's thread.

    Another e.g. 2+2=4. We may choose to believe otherwise and never truly suffer for it. Karma's weird that way. But that doesn't change the facts.

    PS; thx for not (seemingly?) taking offense at my strongly worded commentary. But I would still like to know why you feel the way you do.

    Peace,

    Richard.
     
  8. vm3

    vm3 Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2007
    728
    California
    360 manual says to keep the car in 1st when stopped, and put it in neutral if expected to stop for more than 5 minutes.
     
  9. Doug_S

    Doug_S Formula Junior

    Apr 8, 2007
    450
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Doug
    plus archives went over this and a real F-car tech weiged in. Keep it in gear, with the foot on break no additional clutch wear compared to puting it in "N". Love the F1 so much I will buy a clutch evey so often. Its a keeper.
     
  10. BritBlaster

    BritBlaster F1 Rookie

    Jul 25, 2005
    2,865
    Bellevue, WA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Only if you adopt the extremely foolish practice of removing your foot from the brake for an extended period. (Otherwise you're a "loose cannon" that could put your vehicle, in the event of being rear-ended, either into the vehicle in front, or worse into a pedestrian. It is better to have to repair one part of the vehicle rather than two...).
     
  11. BritBlaster

    BritBlaster F1 Rookie

    Jul 25, 2005
    2,865
    Bellevue, WA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    As long as you have the brake pedal depressed, ie are in control of your vehicle, it will never go into neutral. Well, never's a long time, but at the very least until you run out of gas.


    There is no reason to ever select neutral. OK, there is one, when someone pleads with you to hear your engine rev and they caught you in a good mood. If you're going to be waiting a long time and your foot gets tired, I suppose you could select neutral and engage the hand-brake. If you *ever* smell your clutch burning when stopped with the brake depressed, it indicates a mechanical fault. Period. Have the car checked immediately. Read Dave Helms' post; he wrote a very clear concise explanation for you. My advice is to nod sagely and acknowledge that you've learnt something new here. I don't care what Luca said, or even if the spirit of Enzo came down from the heavens, facts are facts -- and are they are not influenced by hearsay.

    Um, because it's necessary -- an automatic gearbox cannot be disengaged from the power train without one and the engine would stall, which both manufacturers and drivers alike tend to agree is a *bad thing*. Basically a TC takes the place of the clutch by allowing the gearbox to be decoupled from the drivetrain. Nice non sequitur by the way ;)
     
  12. RAllen

    RAllen Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2006
    445
    Rogue Valley, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Richard Allen
    Hmmm, I think I get the point: NoDoubt *wasn't* trolling or trying to be cute. I think he really doesn't understand that the F430F1 does have a clutch; much like the one in his 348.

    Peace,

    Richard.
     
  13. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
    2,506
    Somewhere, anywhere
    Full Name:
    Eddie B
    to be extremely pedantic, i have to say that a torque converter never de-couples the engine unless the engine is switched off. There is always a degree of torque transfer, which is why automatic cars "creep" as soon as you release the brake pedal. Some of the newer transmissions, like the one fitted to the new quattroporte, uses the front clutch pack to dissengage drive if the oil becomes to hot.
     
  14. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,629
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms

    Most of the time I have tracked it back to an owner using their left foot on the brake peddle and the right foot is still lightly touching the throttle. Usually a subconscious thing where we fiddle with the throttle at a stop light or while on an incline.
    When educating a new F1 owner on the techniques to best save the clutch I keep repeating that their left foot is only going along for the ride, nothing else. As I stated earlier, there are variations to this for track use but thats a different topic.


    ""That's the opposite of what the President of Ferrari NA told me at Pebble Beach. It also doesn't explain the burning clutch smell that you'll experience by leaving an F1 Ferrari in gear at a stop on an incline.""

    Impossible for me to give an explanation for this. I guess my only comment would be he should read the technical manual cover to cover and attend the technical classes being held in the training room in his building. We had many classes on the mechanical and theoretical workings of the F1 system on the 355 and 575 held in NJ @ FNA and again at the factory on the 360. That said, there is an incredible amount of data that for some reason was never put to print in the manuals?.
    Personally I think it is a wonderful system that is well implemented on all models. I prefer the 355 F1 where I have control of the throttle but that is just a personal preference.

    Dave
     
  15. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    Well, more to the point, it's that F1 systems *do* have a clutch that wears instead of having a torque converter like a true automatic transmission that was my point.
     
  16. RAllen

    RAllen Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2006
    445
    Rogue Valley, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Richard Allen
    Of course clutches wear. And placing the car into neutral, under the conditions noted herein ad naseum, does *nothing* to reduce clutch wear. <chuckle> So, what was your point?

    Gosh, this *is* fun! Ok, i'm stuck here and bored silly. Doesn't take much to amuse me right now.

    Peace,

    Richard.
     
  17. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    My point is that putting your F1 into Neutral as you coast to a stop, or even when you are at a stop, reduces clutch wear.

    There seems to be some disagreement with my above point regarding clutch wear at a complete stop...one wonders if the same crew also disagrees with my point about clutch wear while coasting to a stop.
     
  18. cmcjo

    cmcjo Formula Junior

    Feb 5, 2007
    414
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    Joe
    But then you dont get to hear your ferrari rumbling to a stop if you do that.
    I hate the sound of the car in nuetral.
     
  19. BritBlaster

    BritBlaster F1 Rookie

    Jul 25, 2005
    2,865
    Bellevue, WA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    The wear on the clutch is so marginal doing this that it makes no sense whatsoever to try to avoid it. I've coasted to a stop in-gear on every manual/F1 car I've owned (regardless of make), and I've driven manuals for 23 years -- and have never had to replace a clutch yet. The computer for the F1 system will sense when coming to a stop and fully disengage the clutch in much the same way that a driver would in the same situation. It will not slip the clutch doing so any more than a regular driver would do so. Putting the transmission into neutral instead of disengaging the clutch is a poor driving practice and would save negligible amount of clutch wear. It will, however, force you to brake to re-engage first in the event that the reason to stop is removed (ie light changes to green just as you approach).
     
  20. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways
    That makes sense. Thanks, Brit/Paul.
     
  21. vm3

    vm3 Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2007
    728
    California
    The transmission goes into neutral automatically when the car is stopped and the brake pedal is not pressed hard enough.
     
  22. fc2

    fc2 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Nov 2, 2006
    5,263
    Silicon Valley Ca.
    Full Name:
    Frank C.
    Perhaps a silly question, but if you pull in both paddles as you're rolling to a stop at a red light... what would you do if the light changed and the cars in front of you started moving before you came to a stop? Remember, at this point you're coasting along in neutral.

    With the car in neutral, can you simply pull the upshift paddle to pop your car into 1st and would the car's tranny "like" this?

    I'm not interested in trying this myself...

    Frank
     
  23. BritBlaster

    BritBlaster F1 Rookie

    Jul 25, 2005
    2,865
    Bellevue, WA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Hi Frank.
    No, the car will not go into gear until you depress the brake pedal. It takes a firm enough pressure and long enough duration that there is a very high likelihood that you will come to a complete stop prior to the F1 engaging 1st gear. This is a safety feature to prevent accidental gear engagement from neutral.

    The only possible exception to this, is that if you're going "sufficiently fast enough" (and no, I don't know what that speed is), selecting the up-shift paddle, will select a gear appropriate to the speed you are driving. I don't remember whether the brake pedal has to be depressed in this situation.
     
  24. Doug_S

    Doug_S Formula Junior

    Apr 8, 2007
    450
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Doug
    Normally I think of the Internet as self correcting, but it is amazing how many times the same information is corrected and reappears at ferrarichat. I think if you are moving slowly in "N" and not on the brake, if you select any paddle you will get 2nd gear.

    The whole response above turns on "sufficiently fast" (if it is under o.5 mph it is a lot different than if it is 15 mph, yet the poster says he does not know what is sufficiently fast). I have tested it and you do not need to brake to a stop to get a gear from N. If you are not moving, you need to put your foot on the brake to engage any gear. That is understandable, if you are not moving you want to make it a determined choice when to move - lots of automatics require you to press the brake to shift into gear just so that you do not shift into motion before you are ready to go.

    Now if there is some specific foot per second in an F-1 where you cannot shift into gear but must press on the brake to a complete stop before selecting a gear, that would be useful information.

    No disrespect but this shift F-1 to neutral comes around often and I was mislead for a few weeks by it. The manual clearly, in italian-gish, says stay in gear.
     
  25. tonino ct

    tonino ct Karting

    Mar 1, 2018
    127
    Full Name:
    tonino tony
    Now i m really confused. Should i put it in N when approaching a red light or not?
     

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