F1 Tranny/Traction Control = No Talent Driver!!

IMO there are people who want technology aids in their cars and there are those who don't

A more extreme step is there are those who don't want any power assist either. My brother has classic cars for this reason. No power steering, power assisted brakes, nothing.

I dislike fighting technology. I didn't like the traction control and ABS systems on the 93 vette for example, as they are to intrusive, but I love the ABS on the 91-95 Toyota Mr2's.

 

Perfectly said Matt. Another way to look at it is the use of racing tires. Most inexperienced people set faster lap times on race rubber than street rubber but the problems doesn't occur when they are running 6/10's or 7/10's it occures at 11/10's and at this juncture they haven't the skill to know what to do because on street tires they were used to very progressive breakaway, loud squealing of the tires, feedback through the sterring wheel (chatter) and other warning signs that happen about half as fast as on a race tire.

I guess Matt is trying to say that the aides inhibit you from learning what to do when thigs go wrong because the computer does it and does so much to early never allowing you to get close to the limit.

Regards,

Jon

 

I have been putting in some track time w/3 different cars lately.... a 348 that has alot of Challenge and Serie Specialle stuff....an SL55 AMG Merc...and an '88 March Cosworth Indycar.

The 348 and the March require alot of skill (the March obviously more)...but there is still alot of double clutching and rev matching...and some left foot braking to make it all work correctly.....and it's all very rewarding when you get it right...as I'm still alive I've managed to get it right most of the time!

The SL55 has all the electronics...traction control, ESP, ABC, paddle shifting and huge brakes. At the track it works with you....the basic technique is to come hurtling into a corner...downshift with your left index finger...left foot brake as late as possible...turn into the apex...trail the brake and balance the car on throttle...and feed in more throttle and unwind the steering as the car heads out of the corner. You still have to choose the correct braking points and the correct line...but the car works with you.

Both require skills....and when I jump back into the 348 or the March after the SL....I do go through some relearning and refocusing of attention on different skills, otherwise all hell brakes loose! Which is better.....I don't think that's a fair question....they just require different skills. The 348 and the March are very rewarding....but so is the Merc...just different.

I think everyone should learn the basics without the electronic aids so that they learn good...no great car control. In that way they will be able to handle whatever comes up. The basics are critical.....but I can only imagine how good a modern F1 car would be with paddle shifting and driver aids. I haven't checked lap times but I feel faster and smoother in the Merc more consistently than in the 348. The manual cars test your focus on classic skills.

Gosh all this talk is making me want to go for a drive!!! Happy Holidays....Ciao...Dino

 

A very interesting philosophical debate. I thought I'd add a simple bit of color about my personal track experiences - I don't claim to be a track legend unlike some of the clearly excellent experienced instructors on this board, but I have raced twin stroke 70mph go-karts and have a good amount of track driving experience both in Europe and the US.

In the 360 one can more or less ignore standard traction control mode. It intervenes way before the limits of the car, and even I would be way slower with it on than off.

Sport mode is much more sensible as it allows a reasonable amount of slide and slip. I think you can get pretty much to the limit with it on.

However I have personally proved that its still possible to spin (@ 90 mph) on a damp Lime Rock park with the traction control in sport mode (not off).

I firmly believe that being quick is very much about experience. Having driven with Dennis, I can tell you that I'm still a LOT of laps away from getting to being as consistently accurate as his line around Lime Rock. If you ever tried big-bend its not about any driver aids (other than perhaps ABS) its about braking at the right point, a difficult heel toe 5-3 change, thottle control and getting the line right. You'd have to be pretty mental to crash here (unless you're a corvette hitting a 360C - but that's another thread...), but getting the corner *right* is all about being a good driver.

I personally take a huge amount of enjoyment out of learning and getting better at this.

 

I agree

also agree

All one has to do is read the road test reports where the tester tells of how the "stability control, ABS, Anti-skid" whatever saved his butt when he had tried to overachieve.

Whats to fight about?

That said, It's like the latest titanium driver, yeah, you hit it farther, but when it misses the fairway, it misses farther. Does it make you a better golfer? Most golfers will say no. I expect most drivers feel the same about driver aids.

 

Sure does, but you've narrowed your argument to "the guy that knows more about what he's doing is going to be better at it."

Pretty hard to disagree with that.

Happy Holidays,
Dave

 

interesting how one of these threads about how much F1 or tractional control or something always seems to pop up every so often.

it goes both ways. in the case that technology fails, which is does tend to do, you'll have to know the old way anyway. so i figure learn the old way, be decent at it, but if the new stuff will only make you fast i don't see what the problem is.

 

Having been through a few driving schools, I feel I have a pretty good sense of weight transfer...when I'm in my M3 with the traction control on, I can feel this feature alter/disrupt the "natural" sense I've developed of what's going to/should happen with the car. I was talking to Bob Bondurant about this and stating the obvious, he said it's because I've been trained...most driver's don't know or understand the basics of high performance driving (or perhaps even care), much of which can be counter-intuitive. Many of the guys I talk to with M3s turn the traction control off all the time. It did come in very handy on a couple of fast turns that had surprise streams of water running across the apex! Guess it boils down to personal choice; at least we still have the option to turn it on and off...

 

I also have tracked my 3 series BMW several times and find that traction control slows the car down too much. The most minimal, inconsequential wheel slip will cause the traction control to kick in, activating the brakes, thus slowing the car down.

I find that with the tractions control off, I can go around the track much faster.

So unless the traction control that is available is tuned more for "racing", it will not make the driver faster. Rather, I believe it will make the driver safer and slower.

 

i dont see controversy when track day driving is concerned. this is all just a matter of personal taste. i prefer manual steering and gear change with abs so i drive a 348 on track. its most fun for me. however cant argue with march of progress in sports ie. golf clubs, tennis racquets, baseball mits, sneakers/cleats and on and on. yes the technology makes it easier to excel but who cares since track day is only for fun anyway.

real controversy is in pro sports or this type hypothetical: how would schumey do against stewart, etc in similar technology cars