Hi, after driving for a while with the F12, there are a few things with respect to the engine I still would like to improve. 1 - throttle response - Whenever I hit the throttle the car builds torque not in an immediate way..it kind of ramps smoothly in a few instants and does not have that brutal response I like in an NA engine, particularly with this size. Maybe this is because of traction ( and I drive mostly in CT Off or ESP off occasionally) requirements for safety..etc..not sure, but honestly I would like it to be more immediate and reactive 2 - The last part of the revs, particularly the rev cut, is kind of mushy and soft...I really dont like it..it is like if Ferrary made a brutal engine and wrapped its behavior in silk...the engine seems to smooth for me..I like more raw brutal engines in terms of user connection and experience ( I have a SLS AMG ..less power, but the engine response is far more brutal anywhere, any rev, any throttle position...also it has ECU update ) Did anyone had an ECU update? did it help in any way in these directions?
Did you try various F12s? I wouldnt qualify the throttle response as slow... So Im wondering if maybe there is something wrong with your car in particular. And yes, some have remapped ECU with alleged improved throttle response and power.
Hi, in fact I did not try any other F12. that question also was on my mind, but the car has been so extensively tested and verified for many different reasons in the official dealer that I did consider that this is an F12 behavior. As an example, if you are in third gear, CT off or race, with good dry tarmac, let's say 4000 rpms, or 5000, and you floor it partially or fully, it is not crisp and immediate..it is as if it would have some elasticity to get to the max torque...it does not give me the full torque immediately right there...It kind of ramps it up...I mean it is fast, obviously it is not like the lag of a turbo, but it is not brutal in the delivery of the torque. It is not instant..right there.. I feel that the ECU is doing a lot of stuff to smooth up the torque increase. Let's say the car is capable of 550 Nm at 3500 rpms. let's say I am cruising in third gear at that rpm. slowly...I press the throttle fully in a instant and the throttle at that moment does not produce the full torque..it is as if it had a torque increase limiter per gear...it grows..very quickly in a few few fractions of a second I am with full torque a bit later in the rpm, but I do not feel savagery when I press it. It is exactly the ability of a NA engine to build torque immediately that makes it feel savage and brutal...maybe flat plane crank engines are less powerful at lower rpms, but I drove a 458, and it has much less power, more boring during the rev range, but the immediate response is more like the one I like...the F12, seems a bit sluggish and smooth for me..That fraction of a second when you press the pedal is for me fundamental to make it feel good while driving. It seems that this limiter gets a bit less intrusive when the gears go up...but I really don't like it..I like an engine that makes the car jerky at each pression and depression of the accelerator pedal...I don't like something that is trying to keep me safe in terms of traction or smoothing things for the transmission...That is my job as a driver...I honestly would love to see this engine in a car with manual gearbox, no fly by wire, just old style mechanical accelerator cable....
Do you have any reference to what tuner is the more reliable and know what is he doing with respect to the car engine ecu? I mean these ECus are quite complex and interact with other systems of the differential, traction control..etc..etc...Anyone tried it that can share the experience?
Have you checked this thread? I have not done any remap myself so I wouldnt be able to judge which ones are the best/worst. But have you checked this thread? Mase Engineering F12 ECU Tune
I would consider...but a bit our of price range now ...But it is sad that something that is actually the most normal behavior of a V12 NA is kind of smoothed on purpose...
Sounds like your F12 is broken. Mine is an agressive, quick revving beast. Responsing super quick. Are your tires in good condition?
After you into the throttle it is not..but for me the initial reaction for the pedal is quite bland...I also have an SLS AMG and the immediate throttle response and instant torque delivery is insanely more brutal..even if I feel that in the top end it has less power...But the F12 does not give the immediate throttle response I like. The ECU takes a bit to let the torque go up...a few miliseconds, maybe to keep traction..but it is enough for me to feel it mushy...I want the throttle position to give me an instant reaction very linearly always... no ECU brain calculation to see how much torque can it give me..it irritates me a lot...or, I have the car broken, and I have to check with another car...
Throttle response is not an issue with my F12 and it’s completely stock. If anything, I find myself massaging the throttle below 3rd gear because it’s so aggressive and the rear end will cut loose in a heart beat. My definition of brutal throttle response and yours might be different but to me the throttle is very aggressive from the factory. I don’t ever drive it in ESC or CT off, I just stay in race mode. The throttle response is definitely noticeable between sport and race mode. Not sure if this helps you but as others opined there could be something else going on with the car. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Thanks for the feedback. I see almost no difference in the throttle response between mine in wet sport or race...maybe slightly more aggressive..Definetly I need to check the car at the dealer, but I am wondering how will this be measurable...
Something is different about your car. Hard pedal in third gear starting at 3K rpm with CT OFF is a white knuckle affair in mine even with fresh tires up to temp. With cold tires it would be dangerous. Maybe you have dirty valves or something with the ignition. Stale gas maybe. If you are comparing to a 458 that car has notoriously non-linear response as some say its a bit too jittery.
Here is a short video of cold tires, in an almost wet surface, CT off, third gear at 3000 rpms...pushing throttle fully at 3000..I just the engine rev to 5000...but at that rpm..it is just like a docile walk in the park..nothing happens...Just going forward a bit
And there are 2 particular things that also make me wonder if there is anything wrong with the accelerator pedal or any controlling unit. 1 - There is a dead zone of 0.8 cm in the throttle pedal. If I press the pedal during the first 0.8 cm (0.31 inches ) nothing happens. Find it very strange. all my cars do something to the slightest touch of the pedal 2 - in neutral, just using the accelerator, I can't hold the rpm of the engine at a certain value. It always grows until redline at a fixed pedal position..I have to play with it and move it backward and forward to try to stabilize it. It is also something no other car I have does. These 2 things, plus the very non linear pedal feel plus the low torque I feel at 3000 rpms...makes me wonder if there is something wrong.
OP, I believe what you're experiencing is normal. I was also underwhelmed by F12 power. The NA engine making 750hp will "feel" lot slower than turbo engine making 600hp. Add to that, our transmission logic is worse than that of 80s buick or maybe it's TOO good. I'll elaborate below. What you're experiencing is what many of us felt. One thing that helped with my power was raising the octane rating of the gasoline I put in the tank. I don't know where you live, but in AZ, the gas is apparently piss poor, and my F12 made noticeable more power when I put 100octane (on stock map). but still it just never feels OMG fast. I think the reason why we feel underwhelmed is because #1 transmission is pretty smooth at upshift. It also doesn't do that wham downshift from 70mph to 3rd gear like every other car I've ever driven. GTR and M5 feel faster than F12 despite being actually slower when you race them. In those cars, the shifts are more violent; there is more noise, etc. The second reason is the NA torque curve, I think it peeks around 6000rpm then tapers off. so as you climb in rev where you expect to feel more pull, the car will feel pretty weak compared to the turbo rivals. I remember the very first time I punched the F12 in 3rd gear on the onramp. It climbed to 100-120mph pretty quick, but it felt like the car made 400hp tops. I remember thinking, is this it? I think it's combination of being relatively quiet ride, and all the technology in F12 making sure the power is put down without having the rear step out. I suspect computer is dampening the initial torque rush when you floor it at high rpm. I know what you're talking about. It doesn't have that "directness" when I punch the gas. there is a sense of quick ramp up of power/torque rather than immediate delivery. I think this is purposely done to lessen the damage to the components and maybe help with traction who knows. Nothing is wrong with your car. With the ionic sensor, o2 monitoring, etc. if something is wrong, and there is engine damage, the dash will be lit up like christmas tree. Look at the race at 11min. it's single turbo rx7 making 1000hp vs 488 pista making lot less hp. I bet the crapola rx7 will feel faster inside than the 488. but 488 is a lot faster in reality. It's kinda like that. No drama. Puts power down. Just goes. That's F12. I personally like more driving drama but am still too chicken to turn off tcs!
Thank you so much for the feedback. I was in fact becoming quite worried and still am. My initial thoughts were exactly like that. The car does not seem to have power, the accelerator pedal is quite non linear when you push the throttle, and I thought it must be to keep me safe...However, I kind of don't like this level of safety and non linearity and I thought, this is a ferrari, my first one, it can't be possible that they would simply murder the NA response of a car like that... The reason why I bought an f12 was to experience its rawness, its direct connection to my right foot, a v12, NA, big displacement...I mean that is what this should be all about..,not these smart ecu controls that take decisions by you all time. Plus this obnoxious initial dead zone of my accelerator pedal...I mean...I wonder if the guys programing this at Ferrari decided..."We are tired of sporty cars..let's tune the ecu and accelerator pedal as if this is a nissan micra"....and the funny thing is, not even a nissan micra will have the feel so non linear. I have no other NA car that has the accelerator pedal so non linear as the Ferrari...even a 997 turbo, manual, with a lot of lag, has a much direct responsiveness to the throttle, even if it produces lag, the reaction to pedal are crisp because they are predictable... With the F12 it seems I have a damper under my right foot..the car never delivers torque as requested..it takes some more fractions of a second...to ramp it up...it is the most horrendous thing I have ever seen...It is like killing a NA car.. I mean..the Giulia Quadrifoglio,,a turbo car..much more crisp that the F12...the SLS, it is in a complete different league...a proper throttle response...direct, linear, predictable, raw, violent at any rpm any push of the pedal...the F12...seems like there is a sluggish sloth translating my right foot to the real engine input...I really need to have this sorted out.... Also, I feel differences in the gearbox, in the differential, in the traction control and ESP limits when I play between race, CT off and ESP off, but no difference whatsoever in the throttle response... someone mentioned that his F12 has completely different throttle responses depending on manetino..anyway..this is a ptty because whenever I drive my ferrari, there is a bitter feeling that annoys me whenever I am trying to experience the throttle as I drive....
Ohhhh and you are the source of what a ‘ monster’ is. Lol. Unfortunately there are people here that not only drive faster cars but actually drive faster and more involved than you. The gentleman asked for upgrades. Let’s give him upgrade options. Not dumb options on what you think is fast.
caxsf, so i went for drive tonight to prove you wrong... i never noticed tiny bit of gas pedal travel with no engine response. well it's there in sport mode. i forgot to try in race mode. i think it's normal. now that's all i can notice. thanks? bruh
Thanks. I already left the car at the Ferrari dealer. Btw, they told me that the pedal response should be exactly the same in wet, sport, race, ct off or esp off. The things that change are related to ABS, gearbox program for auto, gearbox speed, rear differential, traction control, and stability control. However, I might have a problem with the pedal or something else...
