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F12 or 812?

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by The Ape, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. The Ape

    The Ape Formula 3

    Feb 28, 2007
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    Hi All,
    I haven't been here for a few years. I thought I would stop by for some input. I'm suddenly interested in getting a front engined V12 for the first time since the 599.

    I saw an 812 and fell in love. I also broke the friggin internet to get real comparisons between the F12 Berlinetta and the 812. I was only able to find comparisons between the TDF and 812.

    I don't think that is a fair fight. There are elements for the 812 and the F12 the I like equally. I could save a ton of money on the F12 but that's not the deciding factor. I would love some input from you guys.

    Thanks!
     
  2. IPO1

    IPO1 F1 Rookie
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    F12 is starting get closer to some bottom (more room though IMHO).

    812 falling knife (and more models coming).

    My .02

    And I'm in same boat on V12 -- done with V8 or 10, need to scratch V12.
     
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  3. lamborarri

    lamborarri Formula Junior
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    Nov 15, 2015
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    What do you wanna know about 812 and F12? I had 3 F12’s and an 812, done lots of miles on different occasions.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  4. IPO1

    IPO1 F1 Rookie
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    If you were to buy one today...just one.

    Which one and why?
     
  5. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    There are plenty of threads on here about this very question.

    From a driving perspective the 812 is a huge leap over the F12.
     
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  6. IPO1

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    Yep I read them.

    I guess two perspectives, I'm sure the newer model is better (duh).

    I think there are also people wondering is F12 a good car to jump into now while 812 dust settles.

    And before you say there is a thread--yes. There are a 100 threads on same topics all over F chat.
     
  7. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    Welcome back! I would say the opinions of owners of one without ownership of the other will yield predictable opinions. I would also say the same for those that lean toward owing the latest. Some (and not saying all) may seek to justify their current ownership. This would be normal for exotic ownership. What you want in general are those that owned or currently own both and can be truly objective, That and take some time reviewing the car journalist reviews of each car's initial release. These reviewers typically can't afford to own the car they review.

    We all know the Ferrari approach to releasing new versions of the same chassis. Small improvements in many systems with a body panel change and one new innovation. For the 812 it was rear wheel steering from the F12TdF and electric steering assist. They put the Special brakes on it but the most consequential change IMO is the 6% lower gearing. That changes the personality of the machine adjusting the response at certain RPM and then tuning at the system level to smooth things out. However, a Ferrari is a wonderful machine and I like the cars with Jeckle-Hyde personalities so it puts you in your place knowing you are behind the wheel of a machine demanding respect. I also must be smitten with the cosmetics and originality.
     
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  8. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula Junior
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    In sum, the F12 is an awesome car and presents an astonishing value, the 812 meanwhile is superior in every category save value. If value is your deal (no pun unintended), the F12 is your car. If best of the best is your deal, go 812 and don’t look back. I posted this when I first got my 812 in June. Probably need to adjust/edit it at some point.

    So in between t-storms today I managed to get in my initial 30 mile blitz through the backwoods of North Carolina. I didn’t need any more time to validate my decision to move forward on the 812. If I’m honest with myself, I was more than a little concerned about the price walk between my perfectly awesome F12 and the 812. The dollar gap’s considerable and I was worried that the juice might not be worth the squeeze. Even though I had the opportunity to thrash a new 812 at Road Atlanta as part of Corsa Pilota last summer, I still wondered how it might work for my primary driving, which largely consists of carving up the twisty’s in North Carolina. I felt then, and still do now, that the F12 is 85-90% of the 812. That extra 10-15% has a considerable price. To me though, in the end, it was worth it. And I say this as an unabashed superfan of the F12. Here is what makes the 812 worth the price of admission:
    • 4WS - This new addition goes a long ways to reducing the overall feel of size and heft that is ever-present in the F12. Both cars are remarkably nimble, but the 4WS presents a significant upgrade.
    • Gearbox - The shifts are much quicker, especially the downshifts. My biggest gripe on the F12 was the relatively slow downshift. Compared to my Performante, it felt very much DCT 1.0. The 812 removes that criticism altogether. Added bonus is the shifts come quicker, which means there’s more of them. Also, they are more authoritative, not so much a slam (like a single clutch Aventador), but just very much both quick and abrupt.
    • Noise - Hard to improve on the F12, but the 812 is louder, which for me, is a huge win. To my ear, the cold start is much much louder. I did not go much over 6000 rpms, and can only imagine and assume that winding the V12 to the redline will be corresponding more eventful in the 812.
    • Power - The F12 is freakishly overpowered. It’s a white knuckled affair every time you slam the accelerator. The 812 is even more powerful, and shockingly, the power upgrade is readily apparent.
    • Confidence inspiring - Despite the obvious power upgrade, the 812 is more planted and creates far more assurance and certainty. The F12 always had a Jekyll and Hyde quality that I found endearing, but the 812 gently shifts towards Jekyll and away from Hyde.
    • Turn in - I actually really liked the light and fast steering feel in the F12 and I always thought the turn in was surprisingly engaging. The 812 is greatly refined in its steering feel and directional control. I look forward to exploring this more in subsequent runs.
    • My spec - The 812 is my first time creating a Ferrari spec and I love how it turned out. My worry regarding the spec took on a life of its own over the last several months, but all that trepidation was for naught. It’s exactly how I wanted it to be. Added bonus, my wife loves the spec. She actually called it “elegant and tasteful”. This last part is special as my wife is completely nonplussed on my car addiction. That she actually likes the 812 is an unexpected windfall. (For context, she thinks my Rosso Mars Performante is silly, and thinks the Miami Blue 991.2 GT3 RS I am thinking about acquiring screams mid-life crisis…)
    Bottom line, the 812 is a massive step forward from the already perfectly incredible F12. It’s a forever car for me and I look forward to many years and miles spent thoroughly exploring its capabilities and personality.
     
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  9. The Ape

    The Ape Formula 3

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    Exactly!
     
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  10. lamborarri

    lamborarri Formula Junior
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    If we are straight to the question for an answer, then would be 812 without thinking twice. Because of my love to F12’s in the past years, I had lots of doubt about 812. Then the moment I got into the 812, I put my F12 for sale without looking back. Not once.

    But it’s not really about question and answer, it’s never that simple with Ferrari’s. V12 front engine Ferrari’s have no competition, zero. Whoever tells you there’s competition in market you can immediately tell they are not really into cars. It’s a car needs a lot of motoring experience and mature motoring understanding. Lots of ppl buy it because it’s flagship, because it’s V12, because it’s a Ferrari that they can drive long distance.

    The true is, cars like 599, F12, and 812 are really just one man’s selfishness. It’s a selfish car. It’s for you to enjoy only. So you have to be confident about yourself to fully enjoy a car like this.
    I don’t know how to put it together with my limited English.

    In my recent years, I always changed my cars, I have had pretty much all the mainstream sports cars. There’s one type of car I would always keep at least 1, it’s a V12 front engine 2-seater Ferrari.

    Things are different in my buddies situations, most of them bought the F12 and 812 never like it, nor understand it. They bought it all the reasons mentioned above. Most of them ended up regretting. Reasons are, it’s not sporty enough, the front end is too long and the car is too big, too much depreciation, not flashy enough, etc.

    In the end, I only see 2 types of ppl fully enjoy a V12 front engine Ferrari.
    1. Very rich and confident indivisible. have 0 **** given to depreciation. They have other comfy cars at home anyways and they aren’t really spend time on the forum or review. They simply don’t care the cars enough to justify anything. It’s just a toy for them.
    2. Ppl own and driven many exotics in an extended period of time. Have enough mileage under the bell to justify what’s good for them. They know what they want and what a car like F12 and 812 is all about.

    So my answer may change after at this point if you read thru my long ass writing above. If you are new to V12 front engine Ferrari and you aren’t certain, you can always get an F12 to experience but get ready to upgrade to 812 sometime in the future, OR get something else later on. Like a V8 in the middle. 812 is only the improved and every-little-thing-better version of the F12.
    Or that 100-150k isn’t gonna hurt you, just go straight to the 812.

    Enjoy your car shopping!


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  11. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    Go figure I am neither of the 2 types you mention. I just fell in immediate love with the car and its immense presence and power. It continues to be a great experience going on six years and I enjoy sharing it with people that have never seen or heard a car like it. So maybe I'm more like #2 in your list as know what I want and what the car is all about but without the prior long term exotic experience and never switch cars or motorcycles.
     
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  12. ScottS

    ScottS Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2004
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    I love my F12. I drove an 812 and wow.

    My only add to the comments above is wait until the 812 GTS comes. There will be many more 812SF for sale and the variety and price will amaze you. Perhaps more the variety.....

    Just a thought.

    Scott
     
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  13. IPO1

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    Agree 100% if headed 812 route...I hate waiting, but will for a falling knife.
     
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  14. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Rookie
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    I’ll offer a contrarian view on the 812 falling knife theory. While they will continue to depreciate, particularly as the GTS hits the street, I’m not convinced they will be eviscerated. Virtually every connected Ferrari source I know says the 812 will be Ferraris last v12. There are just too many issues with emissions and with the electric and/or dual motor approach the consensus seems to indicate Ferrari will move away from the twelve for good after the 812 run. To me that will alter the depreciation curve significantly on the 812. I suspect a lot of buyers will snap them up to own the last v12 Ferrari model made and that will flatten the curve for a number of years.
     
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  15. IPO1

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    Plenty of V12's on market...hell Lusso is still being made so not about 'last V12'. Not comparing two, but don't see market holding at all on 812 with so many new models coming and sticker where it is...knifes are sharp IHMO.

    Let's see in two years.
     
  16. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Rookie
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    I’m not sure the Lusso is the same thing as a pure front engine V12 coupe. I don’t like sharp knives, but Ive got my money where my mouth is in this instance as I recently ordered a GTS, so we’ll see what happens.
     
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  17. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    The smarter financial move is probably to get an F12 today and then get an 812 in a few years. Its always been this way in the world of Ferrari- and probably will continue to be like this tomorrow and the next day.

    Catching a falling knife is a pretty good analogy!

    I think @Thecadster and @lamborarri say it pretty well above.

    For me the 812 is such a leap over the F12 because of the general sportiness of the car, it just is a much more nimble feeling car- this might be witchcraft and sorcery, but I can feel it and enjoy it. And the power feels considerably more than the 70hp gain (which is already a lot!) because of the shorter gears. My seat of the pants 0 meter says it feels like 150 more horses. The thing is, the 812 is better able to cope with the even greater power.

    Value proposition- probably best to get a 599 or even a Maranello in stick shift- but if you want something a bit more modern then the F12 is tough to beat. Just don't drive an 812. I would have never believed it before I drove one, I thought, sure it will be better. Its not just a better version of the F12, it really feels like the entire next generation of car.
     
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  18. bobbyd

    bobbyd Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
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    I would go with the F12 for now - unless $150K means nothing to you. Pick up the 812 later at a 50% discount (current F12 values). It WILL gp that low and will not take very long.

    The reality is that the second hand market for V12's is NOT that big. Especially north of $200K. Things heat up more below that figure and the cars find some footing.

    As MSRP of new V12's approaches and eclipses $500K or more, expect steeper depreciation as the secondary market will NOT rise much to meet this new pricing structure.

    Net net it spells stay away from new Ferrari's unless you have DEEP pockets and money is of no significance.

    Good luck!
     
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