F12 slow than MP12C and aventador in 1/4 Drag? Really?

How many 458s? I get 122 when searching used and not including spyders.
I agree the 12C has meteoric depreciation. Maybe now that the car has the IRIS updated and working as well as the engine and gearbox re-mapped, it will stabilize, but I do think the 2012 cars are headed south of $200K.

 

Yes; good point, but I think the 12c's on there were new 2012 cars or dealer only miles. I think there are a lot more 458's made as well overall though. It just seems like a lot of 12c's available for such a new car, with the 2013 cars being delivered. Don't get me wrong - I love the 12c spider, and the 458. I don't think any Ferrari dealer has had trouble moving the 458 though.


Kevin

 

There's many, many more 458s in the US than 12c's also. So, you can't judge the number of cars for sale.

Resale value is a better indication of how this car is selling vs number on the market. 12c's in the first year lose between 40 and 60K in value.

If everyone was running into a dealer to get a 12c, prices would be higher. If they aren't -- well....

Don't worry... 458 prices are dropping and will continue to drop as more and more cars get closer to the warranty period ending. But the depreciation curve is a lot softer than 12c's.

 

Although production numbers are hard to come by, it is a good bet that there are at least x 4 times more 458 coupes produced than MP12-4Cs, so that everything else being equal one would expect that many more 458s on the market. But everything else is not equal...

 

You beat me to it. Yes price is the ultimate "temperature gauge" in the market.

 

I also don't think IRIS "working" or "not working" was any factor at all in 12c sales.

Engine performance upgrade: Meh -- it's already fast. Was it too slow before?

You either like what this car or you don't.

What's interesting is the depreciation rates in Europe are the same if not worse. You would think the McLaren name would be stronger there and help give them a boost.

I think there is really nothing wrong with the car. The factory just made too many. If they had made half as many, then people would be waiting for them and resale would be higher.

The question is: did they misread the market that badly or just force production to try to meet their goals for the investors.

Only Ron can answer that. In the end, the brand is now tarnished because the SLR also suffered from huge depreciation in it's first year.

 

I don't dispute the overproduction but the car does lack refinement in some important ways (cf. above). I don't know how much this affected demand, if at all, but the car does have a way to go before it can compete effectively as something more than a niche player in a market that is nichey to begin with.

 

the issue with ferrari is they make claims of how fast the car is but the real customer cars fail to deliver on the factory performance claims. i've seen this over and over again. when you spend that much money, you expect it to perform as claimed (at least i do).

but then again, there are many that don't really care about the actual performance... so long it's fast enough, looks good and has the prancing horse marque, then all is good and well.

i personally think mclaren has done a wonderful job considering it is a new marque in producing volume automobiles. no matter what you say, they still don't have the brand recognition as ferrari and the sales and depreciation will show that. but if you look at things objectively, it's hard to fault the MP4 against the 458.

 

Well, not that hard.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPtitpQDZhs]Fifth Gear - McLaren MP4-12C vs. Ferrari 458 Italia - YouTube[/ame]

 

The Ferrari is not about numbers -- just like a Morgan is not about numbers.

It's about how it makes you feel when you drive it.

If numbers impress you, your Mac is waiting. Personally, I found math the most boring class in school.

Let's see. 3.8 seconds vs 3.9 seconds is a deviation of what percentage?

 

Well recently Mac made their 2000th MP4.Ferrari would be making about that many Coupes+Spiders/Year?

 

this is real world MP4 v 2012 458. it's not even close. and i drove the 458 and it's just like that.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRvnxGkNTvg&feature=share&list=UUEKDQogLkPShvYwlf9D4CxQ]MP4 vs 458 - Subic - YouTube[/ame]

458 spider v. SLS. this is the closest a 458 has ever been to the SLS. we've tested 3 cars and it was only the 2012 that was able to keep up.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX-P1KeLP8s&list=UUEKDQogLkPShvYwlf9D4CxQ]Ferrari 458 Spyder vs Mercedes Benz SLS AMG - YouTube[/ame]

2010 458

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU-3PUJMA64&feature=share&list=UUEKDQogLkPShvYwlf9D4CxQ]458 vs SLS - YouTube[/ame]

599 v. stock FGT

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFgVJCQ334]roll-on with a 599 GTB - YouTube[/ame]

this is what i've seen and experienced that lead me to the conclusion that the customer cars are not performing as claimed by the factory and magazine tests. from all the press, these fezza cars should be much faster than this. i remember when the 430 came out ( i had one) and everybody raved about how fast the car is and that it is faster than the V12 Murcielago. i haven't seen a customer 430 beat a Murcie. i know it's not even close because i have a Murcie as well.

i won't go anymore as to the MP4 v. 458 debate as that has been discussed at length and people will have their own "subjective" opinions about it, afterall, this is an FF/ F12 forum. but inline with the topic, i wouldn't be surprised at all if the 2013 Mclaren and the Aventador are indeed faster than the F12. we are all actually very eager to get a hold of an F12 so we can gauge with its peers and see what it's all about.

just to show how fast the MP4 (not upgraded) is, here is the mile run vid against a 700++FGT.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voev2spgrLw&feature=share&list=UUEKDQogLkPShvYwlf9D4CxQ]MP4-12C vs tuned Ford GT - YouTube[/ame]

again, this is not to bash ferrari. they make very good cars especially as of late. i still own one. just saying that don't expect the cars sold to perform as the magazines or factory claim. and as for the feel of driving, i actually liked how the Mclaren rode and drove as compared to the 458 =)

 

Tiff has changed his opinion on the 12c after driving the Spider. The software changes have made a huge difference.

Of course haters will always hate and that review never gets quoted.

 

Sorry I'm not impressed with a car were it goes from "I don't like it" to "I do like it" because someone tweeked some lines of code.

I would like to point out that the "fezza" haters never seem have any problem calling F car owners pretty boys whose only real interest in own one is having a horse on the tail.

Haters will hate indeed.

 

F12 is way above in terms of straight line performance than MP4-12C.

A friend of mine tested his MP4-12C (coupe with 625hp update) on autobahn and a dealer demo F12 berlinetta with following results from VBOX.

MP4-12C:
0-100 km/h - 3,2s
0-200 km/h - 8,8s
0-300 km/h - 28,4s

F12 berlinetta:
0-100 km/h - 3,3s
0-200 km/h - 8,5s
0-300 km/h - 22,1s

Both cars are very powerful, hence the difference only at higher speeds. But the difference above 200 km/h is massive. Above 250 km/h F12 flies away from 12C.

The 12C was broken in with above 5000 km. F12 had less than 1000 km and did not have lightweight options (seats and wheels).

 

Dear Friend

I am to able to show tou you exactly the opposite
458 MY2010 vs SLS AMG Roadster

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkJQunHeFnE]Mercedes SLS AMG Roadster vs Ferrari 458 Italia - YouTube[/ame]

458 MY2012 vs SLS AMG
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtVUAIIDry8]Mercedes SLS AMG vs Ferrari 458 Italia - YouTube[/ame]

Rerace
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w82KHx2RTq4]Rerace Mercedes SLS AMG vs Ferrari 458 Italia - YouTube[/ame]

Not even close

About MP4-12C vs 458 your video proves nothing
There was a clip on you tube (owner from McForum) of a 458 vs MP412c froma 60mph rolling start
That video shows that after a first advantage of MP4 (gained 8-10 meters) tha cars were accelerating equally
That video have been cancelled from you tube ...

Cheers

Luque

 

i understand luque. and i am not saying that my videos are gospel truth. this is only what i have personally experienced first hand or have seen with my two eyes, hence i tend to believe that more than other videos or claims that can be found on magazines and the internet.

 

so your friend was able to fully stop and launch the car in the middle of the autobahn to achieve those times? i haven't been to the autobahn myself so i'm not sure if this is possible.

and was this F12 a factory test car lent to dealers or a true customer car for sale by the dealer?

nonetheless, fantastic time for the f12

 

This kind of videos doesn´t prove anything. So many variables: car and tyre wear, driver response...

 

But it also passes the small test as you would expect this difference at higher speeds.

 

So typical... When Tiff's opinion supports your hate, it is worthy. When it doesn't, Tiff's opinion no longer matters.

Then change the subject.

 

German highway system boasts high density. While some ABs suffer from traffic jams and heavy traffic, you can find some roads rather deserted, especially in certain parts of the day. I would say it is easily possible, but not anytime anywhere. You should come and see. ,)

It was a dealer demo. On german licence plates. Not the typical press car with italian licence plates. Even the spec was not typical press car (colour combo etc.)

 

Anyone got the power to weight figures to hand?

 

Ferrari F12berlinetta - La V12 è arrivata a Vairano [video] - Quattroruote

In april issue we will get first complete test results.

Luque

 

All of these cars will get your ass thrown into the can at the same speed; anything with numbers over 300 in HP and torque is just gravy and court dates.