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F12 TDF Worth Asking Price?

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by 500drvr, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. 500drvr

    500drvr Rookie

    May 5, 2014
    23
    So Cal
    There’s approximately 10 or so TDF’s listed on DuPont Registry. All but one < 100 miles. All but one asking price $1mm or more. Are they selling? Will they appreciate?

    Thanks
     
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  2. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    popcorn time! punchline is overspecced rainbow brite cars arent holding value and hard to sell. wholesale is in the low 800s for good nice spec cars IF you can find a dealer to actually write you a check. unlikely anything new appreciates materially as the market is literally flooded with special editions and new editions etc.
     
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  3. carguyjohn350

    carguyjohn350 F1 Rookie
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    What's the line from the movie The Incredibles? Saying everyone is special is just a other way of saying no one is. Applies to the modern supercar market in a way.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
     
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  4. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    everyone gets a trophy for participating
     
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  5. George330

    George330 Formula Junior

    Oct 19, 2009
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    George
    In Europe the price is 750-800k if you want to sell ... and my view is the price will come down...you can already buy 918s and P1s around 1m EUR, so I can’t see how the TDF can maintain its value up here


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
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  6. Way2fast

    Way2fast Formula 3

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  7. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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  8. Way2fast

    Way2fast Formula 3

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    I think you have to add on 10% for the auction house

    Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
     
  9. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2016
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    And as someone pointed out on another TDF thread, look at the gap between TDF and 599GTO, which are trading less than €500k/$550k in Europe. And they built fewer GTOs. The latest will have a premium but with a 812 limited edition likely, the only way is down for the tdf.
     
  10. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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    OP: Between your subject line and original post, you are asking THREE different questions.

    1) F12 TDF Worth Asking Price? --> YES! (...go drive one and you'll understand why)
    2) Are they selling? --> YES! (tastefully-spec'd examples usually sell by private transaction, don't even hit market)
    3) Will they appreciate? --> Who knows. Who cares. 99.999% of people who are misguided enough to buy a car under the misconception that it's an "investment" are sorely disappointed.

    Many buyers would not define the two Tdf's that sold at Monterey this year as "tastefully spec'd" examples, thus those two selling prices slightly below the $1M average.

    Tdf doomsday predictors are largely guys who are still sore that they didn't buy one, or guys who already sold theirs hoping to feel some schadenfreude.
     
  11. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2016
    433
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    Scott
    Who cares? I don’t. I won’t ever sell mine

    What’s the motivation for your question?
     
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  12. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2016
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    Barry K
    If you asked the question to get people's view here on appreciation, you can see it is quite varied. One thing I tend to see around price related threads here and other forums is that when owners reply saying who cares about price/ I will keep the car forever etc, it usually means prices are on the way down :)

    Assuming you are looking to buy to drive rather than just for investment, then worth doing a search on the driving experience. To say that opinions about the car's dynamics are sharply divided would be putting it diplomatically.

    Also worth remembering that these cars are very sensitive to mileage. As you have seen yourself, there are so many with delivery miles, any additional mileage has an impact. Good news if you actually want to drive it, since you can find a cheaper car with some miles. Good luck
     
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  13. obbob

    obbob Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2017
    632
    The biggest unknown factor for the TDF future value (besides general macro trends such as economy), is the special version of the 812. If the 812 TDF ends up simply being an F12 TDF but better, then it's highly likely that future collectors will view the 812 TDF as the ultimate and most desirable version of the F12 platform.

    A good parallel example would be the desirability of a 997.1 GT3 vs a 997.2 GT3. The 997.2 was similar the .1, but superior. Comparing the two, there is nothing uniquely desirable about a 997.1 over a 997.2.

    Now if the 812 TDF goes in some totally different direction that makes the F12 TDF unique, then there is the possibility of the F12 TDF holding better desirability in the long run.

    Regardless, this discussion has little impact on you as a buyer unless you're planning on holding onto the car for 10 years. As of now, it's a depreciating car. And even if it does appreciate, you have to maintain collector miles.
     
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  14. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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    You're wrong. It means we don't care what the car's "market value" is because the car delivers enough intrinsic value to us that we NEVER intend to sell, whether value goes UP, or goes DOWN. (... But only a truly passionate Ferrari connoisseur would understand this...)

    You're wrong. This would only be true if you were foolish enough to believe what click-baiting Youtube posters (and posers) say as an attempt to harness web traffic. There are numerous examples of highly qualified drivers who love the car, including Cort Wagner:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/tdf-exactly-as-crazy-as-it-should-be.542768/

    https://www.driverdb.com/drivers/cort-wagner/

    https://www.speedsport-magazine.com/race-driver-database/biography/cort-wagner_-_1118.html

    That's like saying a 275 GTB's greatness is dependent on how great (or not) the 365 GTB/4 is/was. Assuming a LE/VS 812 actually gets built (still questionable), the F12 Tdf will stand independently. It is, and forever will be, derived from beautiful Pininfarina design - the 812 is not. The F12 Tdf has a real key, no HELE, no GPF, no e-nannies that will be EU mandated if/when LE/VS 812 enters production. Net, F12 Tdf will stand independent of (possible) LE/VS 812.

    Tastefully spec'd 2-3 year old Tdf's with MSRP's of 550-600k currently sell for around 1M... You call that depreciating??
     
  15. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    i think prices will be stable for a longtime around 900, so a 600k sticker car will be 1.5x sticker...from a relative value perspective i think tdf and cgt shld trade around the same spot. speciale and gto are around msrp. CS are sticker plus. Scuds little less. apertas are sticker plus. will be interesting to see of pista stays at sticker. id buy a high mile one and drive it. i didnt love the looks enough to keep one as a garage queen.
     
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  16. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    yes but you got silver; not F1 2007 Quad Strato red that looks like candy! ;)
     
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  17. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
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    Jul 28, 2004
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    I've got both. I drive both. I LOVE the look of the GTO - hence why I bought the one I own - but the F12tdf is a whole different beast. I could go on and on as to why, but driving the Tdf is the absolute most fun I have had in any Ferrari I've ever owned. From my perspective the premium will always go to the Tdf and not the rarer GTO.
     
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  18. j09333

    j09333 Formula Junior
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    May 7, 2004
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    One who owns only for future value but not drive them has no idea what tdf means to FR v12 greatness.
    Not driving tdf should be a crime lol.

    The only car I respect and which requires different mindset when driving.
    Even 1 M feels cheap when considering what this car delivers to driver.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  19. MDEL

    MDEL Formula 3
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    At Mobile.De there are 13 F12 TDF's for sale and the prices asked oscillate between 789,000 Euros and around 1 Million Euros being the average price asked around 860.000 Euros. I look at these prices on a regular basis and during 2019 the prices asked and the number o cars for sale appear to have stabilized. Because I've seen the same adverts at Mobile.De for quite sometime, I wonder if any transaction occurred this year.

    PS- For the ones interested in trying a TDF there is a company that hires one in London for £ 1100 a day. If you can't cope with driving on the left side of the road or find the TDF too wild, this company offers the option of a chauffeur :)
     
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  20. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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    I feel same.
     
  21. plastique999

    plastique999 F1 Rookie
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    I hear this a lot, that the TDF delivers a very raw, visceral performance.... would like to hear its comparisons to CGT.


    Sent from my 16M
     
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  22. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
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    This will go back to why I prefer it over the GTO but having never driven a CGT, my story might fall short.

    The GTO is absolute crap when driven slow and shifted at low RPMs. It jerks and pauses and lurches about. My wife absolutely hates riding in the car because of the pauses in the single plate clutch. HOWEVER when the car is driven hard - in fact it begs to be driven hard - it comes alive. It's a Dr Jekyll / Mr. Hyde kinda car. When pushed hard it's great. But it needs to be pushed to the absolute limit to be enjoyed. The transmission bangs the gears up and down when shifted and does it with a big fast thump. The Scuderia gearbox is similar but has even more drama as it's like a kick in your back. The engine is ok but it's true personality comes from shifting.

    The Tdf is all about the engine. Shifting is a nonevent as it's so fast and smooth and happens so fast there is no time to think about it. The engine is magical and one of a kind. The GTO, Speciale, Pista, Lusso, 488, FF, 612 - all of which I have recently owned/own don't compare in the slightest. Here too is a car when short shifted is tame/calm/quiet. Shift the Tdf at 4k-5k, it too is a nonevent (like the GTO) but when pushed, the engine comes alive. No, the whole car comes alive. One need only watch the Chris Harris review to see first hand. When pushed, the car's electronics struggle to keep traction and grip even though I swear I actually burn a little rubber shifting up through the gears. The car wiggles about under full throttle and feels like it's on the edge of losing it. The engine has a very unique growl and sound both mechanical and exhaust all coupled with this awesome feel of g-force pushing you back into the seat.
     
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  23. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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    So true Ron... I remember one time upshifting at roughly 100 mph and the rear kicked out, almost certainly as a result of breaking them loose... Every drive is an exciting adventure.

    Outstanding write-up... !!!

    Having never driven a CGT either, all I can surmise is that perhaps the biggest similarity between the two cars is that both demand respect, else you'll get hurt. :)
     
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  24. Luk77

    Luk77 Rookie

    May 6, 2018
    25
    I drove a CGT and a F12, never driven a TDF... however the 2 cars are not comparable at all! Front engine against middle engine... Aluminum chassis against carbon fiber chassis... Automatic gearbox against manual gearbox...

    I believe as well 812 special series will be like RS 997.2 Vs 997.1.

    Considering same value (and now TDF as an higher value) I will always choose a CGT... we are talking about a tuned F12 against an hyper car! I understand if CGT is not popular on Ferrarichat...
     
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  25. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    when i drove my CGT i felt like i was in an exotic...didnt feel that way in the tdf. cgt with original tires was frightening. the new michelins they made for it helped enormously. Hard cars to compare since one is front engine but having owned both i do think they shld trade around the same dollars.
     

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