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F12 TDF Worth Asking Price?

Discussion in 'FF/GTC4Lusso/F12/812S' started by 500drvr, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Red Sled

    Red Sled Formula Junior

    The timing of the question is fortuitous as I had both of the cars on track this afternoon in Italy. Based on my experience (approximately 20k on CGT and 4k on tdf, split between track and mountains), I would suggest that the driving characteristics are quite different beyond the initial sense of rawness.

    The CGT is really two different cars depending on whether the tyres have been upgraded from the original Michelin PS2 to SS released a few years ago by Porsche. Prior to that, I had a car whose sensitive on-limit handling required circumspection on the road and plenty of run-off on track. Exciting for sure but very difficult to run consistently at the limit. Post upgrade, it shares many of the driving dynamics with the F50 which make them among the best manual supercars made: taut chassis response, flat cornering, rich steering feel, and amazing engines. The F50 edges ahead due its lightweight go-kart style response through corners, and and and even better engine even though the CGT brakes are a testament to the massive improvement from ceramics in the approx 10 years between the cars. Without the electronic nannies (PSM - Porsche stability management) on the CGT displays typical mid-engined handling: neutral to mild understeer on the way in, adjustable on throttle mid-corner and snaps into oversteer beyond the limit which requires quick, accurate correction.

    The tdf behaves quite differently in that the turn-in is immense for a large front engined car, and you can delightfully oversteer around the entire corner if you get the balance on its knife edge, but the inputs need to be correctly metered and precisely fed in. Unlike the CGT/F50 mid- corner throttle corrections can easily induce more oversteer. I am still very much at the start of the learning curve, but it is an amazing journey, and fundamentally very different to anything I have owned including the earlier F12 and the later 812.

    The need for electronic handling aids is perhaps the biggest similarity between the tdf and CGT - both appear to be designed to be driven with them on, at least on the road. The static stability is relaxed by design to allow super sharp response but the aids keep it within limits. I have just about graduated to CT-off on mountain roads but ESC-off is a step too far.

    I have seen comments about the unpredictable handling on both cars. I prefer a sharper knife and learn to use it correctly (and mind my fingers!)

    I agree with the post above that the tdf will stand independently to the other V12 limited editions. The answer lies, at least in my mind, in its sheer force of personality which is much more than the sum of its parts. Given the seismic changes underway in regulations and the market, I doubt we will see its kind again.

    Not sure how any of this helps the OP, so apologies if off topic.
     
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  2. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Thank you, absolutely fantastic post! :)
     
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  3. nads

    nads Formula Junior
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    Ron....suggest you get the car checked out, I have not experienced any significant jerks and/or pauses. In fact at low rpm's if you stick it in auto I find it drives relatively smoothly and when pushed hard the noise alone is worth the price of entry :eek::cool:
     
  4. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
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    I will. I did buy a car that had been sitting for years and years. 300 miles total when I bought it.
     
  5. plastique999

    plastique999 F1 Veteran
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    Fantastic information!
    If you had to choose one, which would you?
    I don’t think I could trade my CGT for a TDF. I would absolutely love a TDF for it’s special attributes. But a high price of entry.


    Sent from my 16M
     
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  6. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

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    I have been an owner for 37 years,
    during which I have bought/sold/raced/slept-in plenty of Ferraris, so please spare me the lecture about connoisseurs.


    Hardly. There are well respected owners who have posted here, e.g:

    I can understand that some owners wouldn't want to hear a bad word about their favourite toy, but an open and moderately enquiring mind might find that opinions on the tdf's driveability IS sharply split as I said.
     
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  7. Katonk

    Katonk Rookie

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    Let's see what happens to TDF prices when all fcars need to comply with EU noise limits or the dreaded gas particulate filter(GPF). TDF will be the last of the best sounding fcars. Imagine a TDF that sounds like a vacuum cleaner.
     
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  8. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

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    Agreed. Not to mention, the horror show of new Ferrari acronyms like ADAS, HELE, AEB, etc. In the long run, tdf prices have nowhere to go but up IMHO.
     
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  9. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    This. There are so many "special" cars with high prices hitting the market. How many can the market really swallow? Every brand is pumping out limited, pricey models.

    IMO the supercar market has peaked and is oversaturated. Back in the late 2000s and early 2010s, the market was fire but nowadays people lose interest in new models really quick since they are being pumped out by so many brands in so many forms.
     
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  10. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    Why will NA be more special than NA + hybrid in the 812 replacement? Hybrid detracts from nothing. It's still has 100% of the best NA characteristics and removes the worst ones. Same sound, but better response and torque, with some slight EV benefits like quiet start, battery only driving, etc.
     
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  11. MDEL

    MDEL Formula 3
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    The two seats front engine V12 GT Supercar is part of Ferrari DNA and through decades, model after model, has had an absolute domination making all the competitor’s cars a shadow of the Ferraris. The TDF is the supreme exponent of a Ferrari V12 GT powered just by a combustion engine therefore, and soon, when all Ferraris will be hybrid, it will be even more special and more desirable than what it is now. In less than one decade the TDF will be regarded more and more as an icon from an era in which it was the last and the greatest road V12 GT non hybrid built by Ferrari.
     
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  12. j09333

    j09333 Formula Junior
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    Tdf will be tdf no mather what 812vs will be.
    They will only improve what tdf was lacking and for this, the imperfection tdf has will become perfection.
    It is such a unique driving expriences.
     
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  13. unotaz

    unotaz Formula Junior

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    If the current emission rules and regulations stays the same, then yes, I would agree with your statement below. However, you and I both know with the way things are going, emission are getting stricter and the GPF is just the beginning of the end.

    Therefore, certain models, like the TDF for example, might have a special place among the current crop of supercars (seems like there is new supercar every month). Furthermore, if the upcoming 812VS is not numbered like the current 488 Pista Aperta, with the GPF and higher production number, the TDF will benefit from all these changes.

     
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  14. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Rookie
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    Soon enough every new Ferrari will have electric motors and then all electric. Those that know and follow the brand will have a special desire for the ICE only cars. Those ICE only cars that do not have any of the pollution devices during the recent transition to electric will demand a premium. Of those, the ones that are closest related to Enzo and PF will be tops on the list. Any of those with numbered plaques will be above them. The TdF has all of that and drives with soul even though it has no PF badge. I think it is the last of the best of the era.
     
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  15. Thecadster

    Thecadster Formula 3
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    In a word....weight.
     
  16. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    Doesn't really matter at these levels. Once you're pushing such heavy weights, a couple hundred more doesn't matter. The EV part will more than compensate.
     
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  17. plastique999

    plastique999 F1 Veteran
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    Power to weight ratio may be compensated, but handling will feel more intuitive in a lighter car.
    Colin Chapman: “add lightness” was all about handling. I’d rather track a Lotus than a heavy powerful Corvette. In LotusCup racing, we would equate removing 10 lbs to equal 1 bhp gain. It was always fun to destroy the high HP cars in the corners with higher exit speed...whilst they would then catch us on the straights.


    Sent from my 16M
     
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  18. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    But the weights aren't starting in the 2000s, they are starting in the 3500s. I don't think it really makes a difference and the hybrid vectoring should compensate in other ways.

    I'd point out that while "add lightness" was a great motto, no one ever actually cared/wanted it as evidence by Lotus sales. Lotus was never able to compensate for power as much as everyone else could compensate for weight. You need at least 500-600 hp to sell cars these days. No amount of weigh savings in a road car will give you the stats you need without significant power.
     
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  19. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Rookie
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    I've had this experience before, if you take to dealer, they can adjust clutch sensitivity and engagement parameters. Tell them the situation and have them adjust accordingly.
     
  20. JackCongo

    JackCongo Formula Junior
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    Well, drive a Donkervoort and let’s talk about it.
    Weight does matter, no debate there....
    I’ve never seen a 2000kg race car...
     
  21. dustman

    dustman F1 Rookie
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    Weight matters.

    Lmao at the new ford gt500 at 4200lbs, and all the bloated BMW M’s people think are track cars.
     
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  22. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    The point is that a road going Ferrari V12 GT car, whether it's a VS or not, hybrid or not, is going to weigh like 3500 lbs when it's all said and done at it's lightest. The F12 TDF isn't exactly a featherweight. 599 GTO wasn't a lightweight. 812 VS won't be and neither will any future versions.

    The 918, P1, and LF still dominate all the other lighter models on the track. SF90 will destroy the Pista as well most likely and on lesser tires. The added power, potential AWD and torque vectoring, torque fill, etc will more than compensate for any weight gain.
     
  23. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

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    EV will not always compensate, they run out of juice both ways, drain battery and if you exceed certain speeds (in SF90 that's about 130mph I believe) they just shut off then you are just hauling around a ton of weight!

    Not to mention centripetal forces associated with all that extra weight, plus more wear and tear on brakes and the tires can only take so much weight, etc...it's generally all bad with EV in a sports car
     
  24. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    Yeah, but not when the extra weight is giving you another 100 hp, awd, torque fill, torque vectoring, etc over the lighter variation. Weight matters when all things are equal, but all things are not equal with NA vs hybrid NA.
     
  25. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    And the GT2 RS runs out of water...

    The P1, 918, and LF are still faster than every other non-hybrid offering from those companies years later (Senna maaaaaybe excluded)... Remember, the current lap times are on one-and-done cheater rubber. I'll put a 918 on 2020 Cup2 R up against a the latest GT2 RS any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    Sure, the SF90 might be hauling extra weight at 130mph +, but how often are you really above 130 mph?
     

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