F12TDF Wheel Options? | FerrariChat

F12TDF Wheel Options?

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso' started by Ferro458, Jan 26, 2016.

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  1. Ferro458

    Ferro458 Karting

    May 26, 2014
    188
    I have ordered a 2016 F12 and considering putting TDF wheels on it. However, while I see black and silver wheels, I don't know and can't tell if there are other wheel options.

    It looks like there is a diamond cut wheel, is it painted gray between the spokes? Or is it silver?

    How do you guys think this wheel will look on a grigio ferro regular F12 instead of the normal optional diamond cut wheel?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    Id stick with the normal F12berlinetta wheels. The TDF wheels are likely quite a bit wider in the front and I don't know if it could throw off the car's systems.
     
  3. MaseratiCorse

    MaseratiCorse Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2014
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    +1 I would stick with the standard wheels with MPSS.
     
  4. DK308

    DK308 F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2013
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    The systems will never know how wide the rims are. If the tyres are stock F12 B tyres, that's what the system will sense as it senses the diameter. The interesting part is if the ET from the TdF will work on the B as there's a good chance that they are 10x20" in the fronts and ET is more aggressive all around the car. The tyres will fit on the rims i.e, t's all down to how the rims fit on the car.

    As for running the TdF Pirelli Corsa tyres? I wouldn't as it can upset the balance of an already somewhat "lively" car.
     
  5. carlom001

    carlom001 Formula Junior

    Jul 9, 2010
    336
    #5 carlom001, Jan 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    These are the choices available at the moment but personally would stick with the standard F12 wheels given what Ferrari had to engineer into the car including RWS to counter the oversteering effects on introducing 275s up front. I thought my F12 was 'perfect' and would never dream making it less so by using the TDF wheels.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    I think you are insane to start doing this. As Carlom says, the car was undriveable with all that extra front rubber and no electronic compensation and bear in mind they also had to widen the front wings to accommodate the new rubber.
     
  7. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Veteran
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    I personally like the optional forged f12 wheels better but what the heck it's your car ... Best of luck
     
  8. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    I agree but that only works if all you are interested in is posing and not driving. At least try and get them in the right size for the standard car.
     
  9. Tupps11

    Tupps11 Formula Junior

    Jan 7, 2009
    557
    Exactly. Unlike the 918 spyder, the rear wheel steering in the TDF is purely to compensate for the undriveable conditions the extra front rubber induces. Besides RWS, I'm sure there are some electronics that are added to the scenario. Stick to the stock dimensions, even if you change to aftermarket wheels.
     
  10. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    #10 tazandjan, Jan 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    What is with all the hysteria? The F12 tdf wheels should work fine on a standard F12. The only difference is the front wheels are 1/2" wider (10" vs 9.5") and the rears are the same width and offset at 11.5". The F12's standard K2 MPSS tires in 255/35 20 and 315/35 20 will fit the tdf wheels fine. The slightly wider front wheels will just stiffen up the wheel/tire unit slightly, but not enough to alter the handling. 255/35 20 MPSS tires fit 8.5"-10", so that is not any issue.

    Folks have been fitting GTO wheels to standard 599s with no issues and there is a much bigger disparity in sizes between the 8" fronts on the 599 and the 9.5" fronts on the GTO.

    A little more research and less pontificating would be nice.

    Ferrari OEM Wheel Sizes


    5 X 114.3 mm Bolt Pattern

    612

    Five Spoke F 18”, R 19”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 8J X 18 ET 43.5 mm , R 10J X 19 ET 51.1 mm
    Five Spoke Modulars 19”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 8J X 19 ET 43.5 mm, Rear 10J X 19 ET 51.1 mm
    Challenge Monolithic 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 8J X 20 ET 43.5 mm, Rear 10J X 20 ET 51.1 mm

    599/HGTE/SA Aperta

    Five Spoke F 19”, R 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 8J X 19 ET 43.5 mm, Rear 11J X 20 ET 63.8 mm
    Challenge Monolithic 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 8J X 20 ET 43.5 mm, Rear 11J X 20 ET 63.8 mm
    HGTE/SA Aperta Five Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 8.5J X 20 ET 40 mm, Rear 11J X 20 ET 63.8 mm

    599 GTO

    Five V/Ten Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 9.5J x 20” ET 38 mm, Rear 11.5J x 20” ET 63 mm

    California

    Pentagram Forged 19”, 5 X 114.3 mm.
    Front 8J X 19 ET 44 mm, Rear 10J X 19 ET 52.5 mm
    V Spoke Forged 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 8J X 20 ET 44 mm, Rear 10J X 20 ET 52.5 mm

    458

    Five/Ten Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 8.5J X 20 ET 46.5mm, Rear 10.5J X 20 ET 58.5 mm

    458 Speciale

    Five Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 9J X 20 ET 44.7 mm, Rear 11J X 20 ET 48.4 mm

    FF

    Five Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 8.5J X 20 ET 46.5, Rear 10.5J X 20 ET 53.4 mm

    F12

    Five/Ten Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 9.5J X 20 ET 48.4 mm, Rear 11.5J X 20 ET 71.6 mm

    F12 tdf

    Ten Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 10J X 20 ET TBD, Rear 11.5J X 20 ET 71.6 mm

    488

    Five/Ten Spoke 20”, 5 X 114.3 mm
    Front 9J X 20 ET TBD, Rear 11J X 20 ET TBD




    5 X 108 mm Bolt Pattern

    Testarossa

    Five Spoke 16”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 8J x 16 ET 34.2 mm, Rear 10J x 16 ET 59.6 mm

    512 TR/F512M

    Five Spoke 18”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 8J x 18 ET 46 mm, Rear 10.5J X 18 ET 81.75 mm

    348

    Five Spoke 17” Early, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 7.5J X 17 ET 49 mm, Rear 9J X 17 ET 68 mm
    Five Spoke 17” Late, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 7.5J X 17 ET 49 mm, Rear 9J X 17 ET 43.05 mm

    355

    Five Spoke 18”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 7.5J X 18 ET 32 mm, Rear 10J X 18 ET 77.9 mm

    456 GT/456M

    Five Spoke 17”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 8.5J X 17 ET 50 mm, Rear 10J X 17 ET 24.6mm

    360

    Five Spoke and Modular 18”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 7.5J X 18 ET 31.5 mm, Rear 10J X 18 ET 38.95 mm

    360 Challenge

    Challenge Monolithic 18”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 8J X 18 ET 31.5 mm, Rear 10.5J X 18 ET 39.95 mm

    360 Challenge Stradale

    Challenge Monolithic 19”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 7.5J X 19 ET 31.5 mm, Rear 10J X 19 ET 39 mm

    550/575M/Superamerica

    550/575M Five Spoke/Modular 18”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 8.5J X 18 ET 43.65 mm, Rear 10.5J X 18 ET 32 mm
    575M/575 Superamerica Five Spoke Modular 19”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 8.5J X 19 ET 43.6 mm, Rear 10.5J X 19 ET 32 mm

    F430

    Five (Ten) Spoke, Challenge Monolithic, Scuderia Style 19”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 7.5J X 19 ET 31.5 mm, Rear 10J X 19 ET 39 mm

    F430 Challenge

    Challenge Monolithic, Center Lock
    Front 8J X 19 H2 Center Lock, Rear 10.5J X 19 H2 Center Lock

    Scuderia/16M

    10 Spoke, Five Spoke 19”, 5 X 108 mm
    Front 8J X 19 ET 31.5 mm, Rear 10J X 19 ET 39 mm
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  11. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    I agree, a little more research would assist your case. All very well but don't you realise the car becomes unstable and undriveable hence why Ferrari had to create new electronics and the massive investment in 4WS?
     
  12. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Tim- Oh, baloney. Most of that is marketing hype and I have read all of it. They made a bunch of changes to the suspension, including stiffer rear springs and larger rear anti-roll bar, all of which pushed the tdf in the oversteer direction. The wheels made almost no difference and the larger front tires a small difference. Those are basically the same things they did to the 599 GTO and they did not need 4 wheel steering to get balanced handling. And the GTO had even larger front tires at 285/30 20. So they wanted to try something new on the tdf, which the customer will pay for, and this was a good excuse. No doubt it will help high speed handling, but most of the rest of the story is for marketing.

    If you do not understand how cars work and why they handle the way they do, do not give advice that is clearly wrong. For the HGTE 599, they increased the width of the front wheels by 1/2" (from 8" to 8.5"), but used the same size tires and the same shock absorbers as the standard 599. Same thing the OP is proposing. So adding 1/2" wider front wheels and same size tires is not going to change anything in the way an F12 handles. Anybody who thinks otherwise does not have a clue.

    Incidentally, that is my list of wheel sizes and offsets, so I have been doing my research. Dealers and pros use that list.
     
  13. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    Thanks for the lesson. I suggest you apply for a post at the Factory so you can set them straight!
     
  14. Ferro458

    Ferro458 Karting

    May 26, 2014
    188
    Hey guys, thanks for the dynamic discussion and all the feedback. Very informative.

    Just for the record, the intent here was as Taz says, just to use the TDF wheels, but retain the normal width tires, the F12's standard K2 MPSS in 255/35 20.

    Fully aware of the RWS importance when going to the 275 tires on the TDF.
     
  15. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Tim- You may have the latest info from the factory, but you sure do not understand what it means. Let me know when you need some more educating.
     
  16. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    tim, taz know his stuff beyond anyone else - when taz says something, I take it as gospel.

    taz my invitation still stands anytime you get up to the NYC area - hope uve been well
     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    tt- Thanks, did not mean to get irate, but I hate it when bad info is propagated.
     
  18. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    I doubted you once and it will never happen again!
     
  19. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Taz,

    Thanks for the post data - especially the attachment. Just noticed the massive ET on the F12. They really try to tuck those tires in which is why I suppose spacing them a bit works well on the F12 Berlinetta. Interesting that the ET is not specified for the fronts on the tdf which might be germane to the discussion on their direct use on the Berlinetta. Same amount of rubber but possibly different front track.
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    SS- It is not that ET is not stated, it is just that none of my dealer friends or owners have told me what offsets are molded on the back of the wheels for the tdf in front or for the 488. When I get that info, I will update the list.
     
  21. dcmetro

    dcmetro F1 Veteran

    Nov 27, 2007
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    Terry, I strongly suggest to change your username for "Doctor Wheel"
     
  22. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Thank you Tax for your somewhat unnecessarily aggressive response-As I often say to my wife it would be good to have a discussion rather than an argument.

    I have no doubt you are far more knowledgeable than me about suspension, it would not be hard, I was merely trying to suggest to the OP that it would be a mistake to potentially unbalance a sublime handling car by adding fat rubber just to get the look and that he should stick to stock sizes. For that Mea Culpa.

    Having met with one of the tdf test drivers, the head of the tdf Vehicle Dyamics, the overall leader of the tdf development team etc, they were adamant that the car became a very unhappy beast without the addition of 4WS, and updated electronics. To clarify what one of your publications said: "Basically, Ferrari wanted an insanely quick turn in, so they put huge rubber up front. Then they found that the car became an oversteering loon, so they had to compensate to make it possible to drive the car without spinning. Rear-steer is the solution."

    It therefore seemed only sensible to point this out to those who maybe did not enjoy such information and to suggest 4WS is mostly just some marketing hype/conspiracy is, to quote you, 'baloney' and devalues your clearly otherwise informed comments.
     
  23. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Tim- When you come across as an expert on all subjects, but are not, you will give bad advice. Telling someone an extra 1/2" of front wheel width will ruin the handling on an F12 or any Ferrari is just bad advice.

    Ferrari has been adjusting spring rates, shock absorber jounce and rebound, and anti-roll bar thicknesses to get the handling qualities they want for decades. To now suggest they can no longer do that without adding 4WS really stretches credulity, especially saying it was caused by increasing front tire size slightly to a 275 width from a 255 width. When you consider the GTO front tires increased from a 245/35 to a 285/30 and they were able to make that work fine by adjusting spring rates, ride height, suspension settings, and anti-roll bar thickness. So I am sure they could have done the same thing on the tdf. It is also possible to adjust the same things to give a really loose set-up with near uncontrollable oversteer that allowed them to use a radical solution like 4WS. But that was not the only way to get good handling, as the 599 GTO proved.

    So your comment about posing and not driving was not aggressive? That is nastier than anything I said.

    My advice to you would be to keep passing on info you get from your sources, which is quite valuable, but be careful about making uninformed conclusions from what you hear or read. Some common sense and technical knowledge is required to go with that info.

    The good news is the OP got his question answered. Fitting F12 tdf wheels to a standard F12 is not an issue, especially when fitted with stock sized F12 tires. I would even be willing to bet that fitting F12 tdf tires to a standard F12 would come nowhere near making her an uncontrollable, oversteering monster. Not without making all the other changes Ferrari made to the F12 tdf to push it towards oversteer.

    Incidentally, the F12 already is set up to turn in pretty well. Unlike most Ferraris, the F12 is set up to have toe-out on the front wheels. Makes for excellent turn-in, but can lead to straight line instability unless you use some other tricks, which Ferrari obviously did.
     
  24. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Thank you to both Tim & Taz for sharing your Ferrari experience, here!
     
  25. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    I found this article very interesting- first saw it here:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/tracking-driver-education/499363-definitive-guide-selecting-sizing-tires-performance.html#post144470740

    Here is the actual article:

    How to PROPERLY select and size TIRES for PERFORMANCE > MotoIQ - Automotive Tech, Project Cars, Performance & Motorsports

    Just for clarity sake here is stated better than I could at the time write my rationale for saying to just stick with what they put on the standard car:

    I simply went with the very safe advice. However, having learned from the thread- thank you everyone for the very interesting and illuminating discussion- I will be very curious to read the experiences of F12berlinetta owners who switch their wheels to the TDF. For what its worth, I think the optional forged standard berlinetta wheels look really good on most F12b color combinations.
     

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