F2004 is released | Page 2 | FerrariChat

F2004 is released

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by beast, Jan 26, 2004.

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  1. klfpaul

    klfpaul Karting

    Apr 7, 2003
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    When: Reliability of Evolutionary=Reliability of Revolutionary, I would definately say that evolutionary is not enough.

    Perhaps Ferrari were caught off-guard (although I don't see how as we had MP4/18's running around last year with radical noses and the expert fuss made over the potential benefits), thus the statement that the car on the grid in Melbourne would be different than the "unveiled" car.
     
  2. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

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    Anthony C;

    Here is a picture of the F2003-GA front wing at launch. If you look close you can see the turning vanes are present under the front wing. This was also a feature of the F2002. The main difference between this wing is the width of the secondary element.

    Rob
     
  3. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

    Oct 5, 2003
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    Yeah I was upset by that...
    Anyway Jean said the F2004 will look different in Melbourne..so there's still that and the performance of the F2004 on Fiorano that we can be excited before the season starts.
     
  4. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Hmmm, well I guess like everybody else I have to wait until we see testing times, or with less BS, practise times at Melbourne.

    I do have to 100% agree with Tifosi's very relevant comment:

    Lets face it the F2003-GA was really struggling at the end of last year and Ferrari only just hung on to the WC (drivers) with a bit of luck, etc.

    This is why I am very excited to see how the Williams, McLaren and maybe Renault go. If they slaughter the Ferraris this year maybe it will be a very good wake-up call, and if they don't then evolutionary wins again and Williams, McLaren will keep coming up the exciting revolutionary stuff until they succeed ... and then Ferrari can follow (again like they did in '97 with a very close copy of the successful Williams ... as I have said before Ferrari does not appear to have free thinkers in their design team :(, since Barnard left ... but they appear to be very good at taking a concept and making it work :)).

    Lets just hope that Bridgestone can make a tyre that is equal to the others so we can have an interesting season.

    Pete
     
  5. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Here is a picture of the F2003-GA front wing at launch. If you look close you can see the turning vanes are present under the front wing. This was also a feature of the F2002. The main difference between this wing is the width of the secondary element.

    Rob[/QUOTE]

    If you also look from the top views that was so graciously posted by John T. you will also notice that they are much more pronounced on the F-2004, along with other aero-affects that are also on the front wing. Again, I am not an AE nor am I claiming to be one. But the main point is that there are changes and differences, may not be as dramatic as the Williams, and needless to say, there are suppose to be difference in them, afterall, they are two different cars. That leads to another point, let's not forget we are only seeing what's on the surface here. Unless one of us have some special connections that most of us does not have, none of us really knows what is going on in the Ferrari war room. It may be exciting to see something revolutionary, but it doesn't mean that it will work better, let's just wait and see. We owe the team and its principles at least that.
    Traditionally, the team that are trying to leap frog the other teams are the ones taking the chances because they have nothing to loose. But the teams that have the designs right doesn't have to do that, at least not drastic changes. Would you prefer the team bring out a car that is radical in design but runs in the bottom 10? With Ferrari's budget and resources, they probably already have looked into what other teams have done so far. If the Williams nose proves to be better, then you can bet that Ferrari will have it in a few weeks as well (As a package with the rest of the car that is). Remember the 96' car, they switched from one nose to another in mid-season. Even if this year turn out to be a non-Ferrari year, so be it, they are bound to not win it all once in a while (Try 10 plus years). Also, until Renault, Toyota or Ford can win a WC, Ferrari is still the only top team to win a WC by themself, which is not a easy thing to do in the current day F1 world. With all that being said, I too am a little disappointed by what Todt had implied earlier, so I do understand where some of the frustrations are coming from, but my point is that the car has not even seen any track time yet and the sky has not fallen either. They may not even get the car right until the 3rd or the 4th race into the season, but that doesn't mean that they are not going to win the WC. How many of you here in the States knew the Pathers and the Patriots are going to be in the Superbowl this year? Needless to say, we are all passionate about F1 and more specifically, Ferrari, which is why I am here on FerrariChat and that is why we are here talking about this in such detail, for some reason, I just find the mob-mentality to be a bit surprising. That's all.
     
  6. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

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    Anthony C;

    I am not looking to start a war of word here. But when you take a look at the pictures it is impossible to determine what state of Aero tune that was being displayed.

    Here are a few facts about the turning vanes under the wing. They are always changed from track to track as each one has different drag penalties to go along with them. They have been under the wings of F1 cars for ages so it is nothing new. Other items that the teams use to tune the car to the track is the thickness (chord) and airfoil shape. The engineers are always trying to find a balance between down force and drag. For example a track that has high speed straights and tight corners. I.E. Indy they may choose a wing profile that is thin for less drag but has a greater camber to it and more Angle of Attack on the second element to still create down force.

    With resources like CFD and windtunnel testing 7 days a week 24 hours a day to try every concevable combinations of Aero packaging. They have already figured out what will be the most efficent package before they head off to the race.

    If you look at this thread http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6183 you will see that the models that i created of the williams and McLaren noses resulted in perhaps the same overall amount of down force VS drag. If anything is more radical on the F2004 id the lower element of the rear wing being curved on the leading edge.

    I feel that the team found what was causing the balance issues with the F2003-GA (Not being able to move enough weight to the front of the car), Along with optimising the suspension geometry and finding further Aero gains is what they strived to achieve with the new car.

    I myself have not sounded the dooms day bell like some others but i was still hoping for something new and unique with the car for this season so i could study and learn from it.

    Rob
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Okay I agree with the comments regarding that you need to think differently if you are winning the WC, and thus not trying to play catch-up. I also very much agree that revolutionary can be a disaster for motorsport as you spend half the season trying to get it working ...

    The only thing that concerns me is what happens when somebody finds something and then jumps a performance jump ahead of Ferrari. I would like Ferrari to be the one finding that something.

    I guess as Ferrari is an excellent team, all that would happen is they would struggle for that season, and then copy and perfect the idea and come back winning :)

    I guess my main concern is that I do not want them to return to another 21 year drought ... what caused that drought?

    1. Slack driver pairing, for example: Berger (2nd rate) and Alesi (great but also 2nd rate.
    2. Barnard - and his refusal to work in Italy ... great cars but ...
    3. Internal team politics ... including Enzo refusing to go to any more races and thus getting the situation all wrong.
    4. Misunderstanding racing ;), by this I mean:
    - Not being ready and fighting at the begining of the season.
    - Worrying way to much about being the fastest in a straight line. I can remember watching the 80 + 90's races and being distrought at the time sheets showing Ferrari always the fastest at the end of the back straight!!! :( ... they would put so much emphasis here that they lost time where it really counts, ie. corners. Note: How Ferrari are hardly ever the fastest anymore :). Counter point: Before I start an email war, yes you will be faster if you come out of the corner well on to the straight, but Ferrari was not doing that, they were trimming wings and wringing the cr*p out of their motors to be the hero ...

    I guess most of the problems have gone away ... especially not being competitive until the European races.

    Pete
     
  8. ferrari_kid

    ferrari_kid Formula Junior

    Jul 5, 2003
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    I'd hate to see Ferrari go back into a drought too and I'm sure they aren't planning for that either. If it takes a losing season for them to figure things out then I think in the long run it should teach them a lesson.

    In all honesty when I first saw the pictures of the 2004 I swear I thought it was just a repost of the 2003GA. I'm hoping Ferrari has tricks up their sleeve somewhere. Maybe they'll be like Williams was last year and get stronger as the year progesses. Hopefully Bridgestone will do the same also.
     
  9. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    I have seen that tread, and I am not even going to pretend that I understand them fully as to how you arrive those conclusions, as I have no background in engineering at all. And I must say that it is rather remarkable that you were able to come up with such detail studies of the two rival camps just from the photos, bravo! And it does appear that I was sadly mistaken for thinking those turning vanes being new. I came up with that just from looking at the pictures that John T. had posted earlier, and needless to say, I was wrong. However, my point remain the same, and just as you have stated yourself, things are not always what they seem. The car has not even been on the track yet and my fellow Tifosi here on FerrariChat are already speaking of losing the title. As for the painful years that we all rather forget, if I recall correctly, Ferrari was out-classed and severely out-dated in every aspect when compared with the other top teams. The current day Ferrari team is on the forefront of F1 technology, as they were more of the dinosaure in the 80's and the 90's. With that being said, even know I don't work for Ferrari, I am pretty sure that they will want to avoid such drought from occuring ever again. More importantly, I think we all agree that a WC winning F1 car is not made of a front wing or how it looks along, it is a combination of many other things, things that we are able to and things that we are unable to see from the photos. Anyway, if I had upset anyone here with my posts, I apologize. And I think I will let this end here before this tread become personal and gets really ugly.
     
  10. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    I remember that the front wing of the F2001 which was seen at the official launch was different from the one they raced. They just used a fake front wing in the launch to not give any clues to their rivals.
     
  11. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Rob (the other Rob!), how about a comparison between the 04 Sauber and the 04 Ferrari. Any significant differences or are we running a 5 car team this year?

    As far as the Italian press goes, they already bring out the champagne as for them it is now a given, that Ferrari will clinch the WC. And they must know, don't they? After all they've always been independent and rational observers...
    :)
     
  12. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Nothing personal from me :), I actually thought about your comments and yep I do agree to most degree, as my last post would indicate.

    I myself think you were a bit hard on Ferrari in the 80's and 90's :D ... they were right there usually in the top 4, and infact in 82' (I think) they won the manufacturers championship ... and I personally think that what held them back was internal team politics, etc.

    As for the current Ferrari team being the cutting edge of technology, well I have to disagree slightly. The F2002 was a car that had an edge on the other teams ... and I still think the best modern Ferrari F1 car if not their best of all time (?), but the F2003-GA trailed, as did their 97', 98', 99' and probably the F2000 car (infact I seem to remember that the McLaren was voted the best car that year) and the F2001. Now the F2003-GA was hampered by under performing Bridgestones but even so I still did not see a great car that needed to blosom.

    But we have a good team at racing and reliable cars thus we do okay when it counts, and we have a team built around one exceptional driver. If the team raced like Williams then would we be winning the drivers WC? No!

    Lets think from a technical point of view about the things that Ferrari have shown the way to the other teams:
    - Definitely the paddle gearshift was a Ferrari 90's idea.
    - Upward pointing upward exhausts also a resent Ferrari idea, which most have followed. Funny how McLaren refuse to follow ... :D
    - The sidepod shape other teams appear to be following.

    Otherwise I see a very conservative team that does not know how to be creative ... just like Ferrari of old. Now ofcourse as you rightly pointed out is not the right time to be creative ... but there will be a time where they need to be as we cannot expect them to keep on winning for ever, not with great teams like McLaren and Williams keeping them honest.

    Anyway I love Ferrari and would not watch F1 without them, and would be interested in others views in the spirit of an interesting debate ;)

    Pete
     
  13. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

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    Andreas;

    Great question i did a little research on the Suber and Ferrari and found that the Sauber is closer to the dimensions of the F2003-GA

    Lets look at the Sauber first

    Length 4600 mm
    Width 1800 mm
    Height 1000 mm
    Front track 1470 mm
    Rear track 1410 mm
    Wheelbase 3120 mm

    Now for Ferrari F2004

    Length 4545 mm
    Width 1796 mm
    height 958 mm
    Front track 1470 mm
    Rear track 1405 mm
    Wheelbase 3050 mm


    The Ferrari is 70mm shorter in wheel base than the sauber (Almost 3 inches) Now looking back at the F2002 Ferrari increased the wheelbase by 30 mm and now Ferrari has taken 50mm off of the F2003-GA wheelbase. From what i understood this led to issues with ballast placement on the 03 car as they could not get it up forward enough.

    So as much as we hope to have 4-5 Ferraris in the field the Suber is closer to the F2003-GA than it is to the F2004. I think the main thing is if Ferrari does put Badoer into the Sauber for the 3 rd car it will give Ferrari a chance to further Develop the 053 engine to create morre power while staying reliable.

    Rob
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Beast er, Rob,

    How much influence do you think having Massa as a test driver affected the development of the F2003-GA?. When things got really bad they bought back Badoer, or the other test driver that they had when they were developing the F2002. To me this shows that Massa is too young to be in that role, and by watching his driving he looks to me like he is still fighting the car and has yet to mature in his driving ability to work with the car like MS, etc.

    I think pushing him back to Sauber is a good move by Ferrari, but I still think he should be pushed back to F3000 to learn how to harness that raw talent into a fine driver and future champion.

    Pete
     
  15. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks Rob.

    Actually it makes sense, that the Sauber looks more like last year's Ferrari. After all they admitted to a conservative approach and being a midfield team rather copy proven material than invent too much. Especially since their wind tunnel just started operation.

    I think Sauber would be delighted if Badoer runs the third car. Ferrari could learn about their engine and tires and Sauber about where to improve their car. Not that their drivers aren't talented, but having somebody who actually drove both cars can certainly give them pointers.
     
  16. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

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    Pete;

    I really dont think that Massa was that much of a hindrance to the development of the F2003-GA. True he does drive with his head dissconected at times but Badoer was still with the team full time last year also. I thing the 2003-GA was a disaster from the get go. Remember they had a few suspension failures that caused a lot of damage to the cars and they also had engine problems associated with the lower A arms mounting to the engine block. That put Ferrari behind the 8 ball for a while and development of the F2002 was more than likely finished at the start of the season last year.

    I think that the F2004 is a result of lessons learned from the F2003-GA. They have seemed to take parts of the F2002 that worked quite well mated them to the F2003-GA aero package and expanded upon both areas to try and create a more well rounded package.

    Who knows perhaps the F2004 might just suprise a few people at the first few races. Reading the new book that i just receved on the F1-2000 i am in awe of how much development time is used. For example Martineli is already working on modeling for next years motor and design will start with in the next month The team will be starting the study and modeling of the chassis and body in around April. If you recall The F2003-GA did not even hit the track in a race till then. It just looks as if the team got side tracked in the design of the F2003-GA and had to spend a lot of time sorting out the package. This in itself may be one of the reasons that we did not see a radical new design ot of Ferrari this year because they lost so much playing catch up.

    Rob
     
  17. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

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    Andreas;

    Another reason that Ferrai might fund Badoer in the 3rd Sauber is for the chance to use that new wind tunnel that Sauber just built. I am sure that Sauber will learn a few things from Massa and Badoer and Ferrari will be able to get more track time to test there designs.

    I just wonder how come Ferrari does not create a Jr. F1 team and badge them as Maserati. This way they can mold young engineers and drivers for future Ferrari seasons.

    Rob
     
  18. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Whoa! What a brilliant idea! Tell that to FNA or to Luca if you can. It would actually make sense. Either take over Sauber or one of the two abandoned F1 team slots and put a Maser team in there. Kinda like what they do with the Maser GT.

    That would immediately boost the image of Maserati and spread the word. Heck, it would even make me look at them with renewed interest.
     
  19. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Would that be allowed ... wouldn't the British camp start crying and moaning :D

    I do think it is a great idea and would be exactly what is required to make me feel that Ferrari have the plan set to dominate in the future!

    Pete
     
  20. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    My understanding is that Ferrari has not been the same since G.V. died at Spa, the quality of driver at Ferrari never actually recovered (Yes, I know that the late M. Albereto came in 2nd WC, but would you really put him in the same class as Lauda, Prost and Piquet?) And that it was more than just internal politics that held them back. Honda, as an engine supplier changed the faces of F1 forever. The cost of F1 racing went sky high and as McLaren and Williams (As with Lotus, which I often wonder what would have happened if the late C. Chapman had not died so early) went ultra modern almost immediately, Ferrari didn't. At least not until the late 80's and early 90's.

    Perhaps I should have said that Ferrari is one of the teams in the forefront of technology along with the other top teams, as it is very difficult to assess who is the first, at least I can't. It is extremely difficult to be the best all the time, year in and year out, especially when there are so many other factors involved that can easily alter the outcome. As you have pointed out, Ferrari has had some great ideas before but as did the other teams. Think about the current front wing set up for example, we have Tyrell to thank for that as did Renault started the pneumatic valve system etc. It is simply not possible, not to mention extremly arrogant of one to think that they are the best at everything at all time. Yes, Ferrari may not be the most innovative team at times, but you must admitt that in its current state, it is still a heck of a team when compare to the teams of the past and present. As for the 2004 season, I am just going to sit back and enjoy the season as it is probably going to be one for the ages. :)
     
  21. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Yes I do agree with that. A great racing team!

    I hope you are right :)

    Pete
     
  22. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

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    Pete; Andreas;

    If they set it up in a different fashion I.E. different team management, Different race shops, Etc. I dont think the FIA or the other teams will have anything to say about it.

    Also think about this Toyota could start a Jr. Team called Lexus OR Williams BMW JR. team Mini. McLaren could form Damiler Chrysler.....

    So not only this could be good for Ferrari but it could also be better for F1 in general. By having large grids and lots of action on the track.

    Also if they do form a Maserati team perhaps a fat old F1 fan in AZ might be able to get a job with them :D


    Rob
     
  23. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    A Maser team could certainly be launched. The rules stipulate independent chassis manufacturing. So the easy route would be to take over Sauber (or cheaper yet: Jordan) and use their resources on the chassis, put a Ferrari engine in there rebadged as Maser. And with 2 slots available (maybe soon 3) it would certainly be possible.

    BTW: Did you notice how Minardi cleverly bought up the bankrupt Arrows team and this year is using their chassis? They had to modify it though to meet the new rules and prevent being penalized for using somebody else's monocoque. Stoddart is one clever wheeler dealer.

    Just for the record: Gilles did die in Belgium, but it was Zolder, not Spa.
     
  24. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

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    Andreas;

    I know that Minardi did pick up on the old Arrows chassis and that they had tested them along side there current car but from what i understood that they felt that there package was better and they they were going to use features from the Arrows on there 04 car.

    Rob
     
  25. Izza

    Izza Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    As confirmed in Autosport this week the F2004 was launched last week to the press with the F2003-GA's front and rear wings. As such anyone comparing the photos from two launches is only spotting the differences made to the wing due to development last season.

    There is still time for a mini-revolutionary design................
     

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