Pardon my ignorance but why is this car $250k? What is the typical premium for a GTS over a GTB all else (spec, condition, mileage, etc) being equal ? https://newportbeach.ferraridealers.com/en-US/a/used-ferrari/f355-gts/ZFFXR42A1T0104858-1710401607307
Asking prices are not selling prices (but some people are foolish enough to pay sticker/asking price). Naturally, their listed asking price is set to "test the market waters" to see if someone is willing to pay and set/establish a new market benchmark. Similar cars have sold for $50-70k less in the market to include auctions and there's approx $30k variance between the 6spd vs F1 cars. https://www.classic.com/m/ferrari/f355/gts-manual/
If you browse their site they have multiple other 355's for sale at other price points. I understand it's an asking price.. Also, the delta between F1 cars and 6spd is much larger than $30k. I was asking about GTB v GTS
That's a tough call primarily because of the recent market spike (20-22) and subsequent flattening. My non-professional opinion is that the GTS is the most coveted model by "layman." (In rosso over tan). Aficionados and collectors prefer rare colors and options and are willing to pay extras for those details, so it depends on what you want out of the car (driver vs concours and everything in between) THAT said, the GTSs brought record money on public sites. After the supply became abnormally scarce, buyers moved onto the GTBs (which is logically the favorite among people that track (or drive hard) their cars. As US supply dried up, European imports became lucrative (I won't get into a debate about the value of differences there.) Classic.com puts the difference ~$25k but that can certainly be magnified depending on the other variables listed above. If we were in a bar, Apples to Apples comparison (more difficult than meets the eye) I'd put it closer to $40k for a lower mileage, "nice" example without paying for exact colors and options. Ballpark, manual GTBs are in the $150-$160k range and GTSs ~$200k. If you really want to sift through the nit-noids and debates the last 300 pages will provide some insightful reading. Standing by for the name calling
How did you come up with manual GTB’s are in the $150-160k range if I’ve already posted data showing the avg. manual GTB sold in the U.S for $185k?? Where’s the data showing they are $150-160k?? A few samples of non-rare, non-red colors, higher mileaged cars doesn’t reflect the entire 355 US B market. One should note @Wsmatau has never actually broken down the data… because he doesn’t know how to. It’s always more of just posting gibberish or citing the lowest possible results of more common higher mileage examples and desperately attempting to group all examples into that segment. In short, if one wants accuracy, simply ignore. For the third time, one can probably find a “good” manual GTB in the U.S, with 30k+ miles in colors black, silver, and yellow in the $160k range (+/- $10k) depending on condition and recent service. Problem is, that’s not the “market” as they only make up 30% of 355’s. 50-55% of 355’s are red, which trade at a higher premium. 10% are blue, which trade same or higher than reds. The rest are odd/rare colors and the data shows they also trade the same as Rosso Corsa or higher. Rosso Micalizzato car is a huge outlier and priced so incorrectly, 99% of buyers won’t even have a chance. 65-75% of the B market is Rosso Corsa, Blu, or a rare color. Data shows these are trading higher than $150-160k unless the condition was questionable or the car was higher mileaged. In short, don’t worry about the “averages” spewed here. Find past sold records of a spec of a car you either want to buy or sell and be within reasonable range, because rarity, color, spec, and mileage do matter when it comes to what someone is willing to sell for and what someone is willing to pay.
LOL... Ken in violent agreement again, and yet contradicting himself in order to create debate. You may be a F355 expert, but John had to explain the difference between mean and median to you to follow his quick and dirty statistical analysis. My analysis was mid-January of this year (page 516 for anyone that would like to view the discussion). That ONLY included BaT auctions because you refuse to accept Classic.com's posted averages due to the fact that they try to capture a larger portion of the market (you rightly pointed out higher mileage and non rare colors.) BUT that IS the broader market (Currently $141k). Since then the yellow GTB and the silver sold on BaT for $160k and $152k respectively. The Rubio Rosso/Metalizzo selling price was suspect, so I'd agree it should be left out. BUT at the end of the day, I was trying to be helpful and answer a question and show outside data points rather than being condescending. It's all available in the thread depending on users willingness to dig through 537 pages.
Umm. I know the difference between median and mean. John explained the difference, but didn’t realize he wrote “median” in his graph, which I had to point out. A mistake he didn’t realize he made. Pull up the post again. Just goes to show you don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about. Most here are asking questions about transactions in the U.S. You are answering with data from a broad worldwide market, which is what Classic.com averages gives you. You aren’t tailoring your answer specific to the U.S market. Classic.com does not add BaT’s vig, which is now $7500. Something you purposely or unknowingly left out in your last example. Classic.com also adds RNM auction results into their avg. I’m sorry, but if a seller and buyer didn’t agree on price, it’s not a valid transaction … for the 10th time. The BaT fee on the Yellow and Silver GTB was $7500. Why are you purposely leaving that out?? These are real fees a buyer had to pay before bringing the car to his state. Are you trying to be accurate or are you trying to downplay results?? My data goes beyond BaT results. It captures public transactions of all cars sold in the U.S. listed by Classic.com. Why don’t you do us a favor and list all public cars sold in the U.S and tell us how you arrived at $150-160k? At the end of the day, you’re just not thorough enough to be giving 355 advice or 355 market advice. Missing or purposely leaving out too much important/relevant info for a buyer or seller to take seriously. What’s next? 355’s are $120-130k next week?? How about just sticking to posting car specs and results accurately and leave the averages to people who know how to do math?
Someone needs to show me real data showing the delta between F1 and Manual is $30k. Plausible for a Spider. Highly unlikely for a Berlinetta or GTS.
Here’s a real answer. Over the past 3 years, prices of manual GTS’ have moon shotted quickly far surpassing the pace of Berlinettas. If one looks back far enough, you can find price deltas in the $50-$75k range. Keep in mind I am only speaking of results in the U.S market. Most of it is public. Since, dealers have been scrambling to find euro cars to resell here as U.S market cars are limited. This bias is more towards GTS’. Hence there is now pressure on GTS prices in the U.S to come down from HIGHs. Consider it a pullback. Meanwhile, manual Berlinettas have slowly edged up closing the gap further, but the gap is still noticeable. Asking prices are higher and actual results will remain higher than the B market imo. I think GTS’ prices are right where they should be. It’s the B’s which need to come up on avg. to close the gap. Probably somewhere between a $20-40k delta. If more euro GTS’ come in it will continue to put downward pressure on GTS prices. Because B prices are lower, importing a euro B for a seller is higher risk and lower margin if any as euro cars have gone up as well most likely due to heightened demand from U.S buyers. I expect 355 markets to be stronger around this time next year as interest rates come down. Equity markets are strong and not everyone wants to pull capital away for a car purchase in the middle of a frothy market.
If the dollar weakens as rates come down, euro cars will be pricier to import. That could dampen the flooding of euro cars into the U.S. In any case, an individual buyer can probably find some deals outside of the U.S if he doesn’t mind some risk. Imo, cars that are already here have a good percentage of risk taken out of the equation. Better chance of accurate history hence the premium. People here have put eyes on them. Hence the reason quoting broad worldwide market is a bit misleading because by the time one brings the car here, he could be out of pocket the same if he had just purchased a car already here or even more for unexpected issues. Hence the reason @Wsmatau is still 355-less after 6 years of searching. He keeps pushing the narrative 355’s are getting cheap everywhere every chance he gets, but somehow he never manages to find one cheap enough to buy, but he’s more than happy to give you advice on where to buy one cheap lol.
Every single time @Wsmatau has gone out of his way to point out, “look how cheap this car sold. The market is correcting” the moment someone who actually knows what he’s looking at breaks it down … you then realize the car is far from cheap or it was cheap for a reason. That’s all I have to say about his expertise on the matter.
I hope people don’t take this the wrong way. I totally understand people have a budget. I’m all about finding deals and helping people find deals, but it really has to be a deal. I’ll be the first to tell you if a good car is a deal or not. Saying something is a deal or cheap when it’s normal pricing for what the car is is just a smh moment for me.
For those just tuning into the channel… Speaking of deals, I handed @Wsmatau a deal on a silver platter. I notified him of a 95 Red/Tan GTS with 30k located in CA. I believe the price was $160k! Why did I notify him? Because I genuinely believed he was looking for a 355. He just ignored it. That’s fine. Not my problem really. Not only did he not appreciate the lead, he went onto continually bash 355 prices and the people who purchased them. This is evident here and in his BaT comments. Someone else more sensible contacted me, bought the car, sold it on BaT for $215k 8 months later. Ever since, @Wsmatau has been on a salty rampage desperately attempting to distort market data with heavy downward bias, WHILE the market was going up. It’s gotten to a point know where he has to tone it down and be more subtle about it because it’s so blatantly obvious the market is significantly up. I’ve noticed a pattern of him talking down buyers here and on BaT only then realizing he’s not an actual real buyer himself unless a 355 is sub $80k. He’s here to troll and he has a history of trolling going back to 2018. Now that I’ve caught onto his MO, I take it upon myself as a duty to troll his troll posts. Any attempt by him to sneak in misleading data here, you bet I’m shutting it down. Welcome to Fchat.
The 355 market could be up, down, or sideways a year from now. Who knows?? Place your bets. However, when we discuss market data, we are trying to figure out prices right now (based on recent/past transactions) for those who might be interested in buying or selling a car right now. Personally, I don’t have a 355 to sell ( I have 2 of them). Someone could offer me $250k right now for each one and I simply wouldn’t consider it. They’re simply not currently for sale. I assume people read this thread hoping to find insight. Insight with convincing enough data to back it up. Otherwise, it’s simply 3000 pages of a lost cause. Post your insights, but back it up. Saying things like, “go back and the read the last 300 pages” or “check out classic.com” is a cop out imo. Vague at best. Autobarn Classics probably browsed Classic.com for 5 min and left $50-75k on the table.
OK, you got your panties in a bunch because I disregarded your benevolent "deal" after I had said I was on the sidelines at that pricepoint. I should have bowed to your unique insights and shouldn't share an opposing point of view. Got it, you're right @ShineKen. I know I am presenting cars at the middle/lower end of the price point without presenting cars that are real problems. I've never denied that, and will continue to do a fair job of presenting a counterbalance. But somehow no criticism is given for the "hype" machine that appears in a majority of BaT comments section (from F-chatters, not specifically you) saying that 355s "will be the next Dino" or should be $500k cars soon. It's just hype playing on FOMO. I think we can agree that the 355 was undervalued 6 years ago, hit the bottom of the depreciation curve and naturally started appreciating. Then the COVID spike (and a lot of free $$$) drove the entire market up. Since then things have plateaued or come down from the spike in pricing. As with most of your points, they are exaggerated or cherry picked. The market is not what it was three years ago (or six for that matter) when I was originally looking. I've addressed the auction fees previously and don't agree that they should be included in a market analysis of car pricing. It doesn't matter how many times you say something, that doesn't make it true.
I couldn’t care less you passed up on a deal I presented. I gave you a clear lob pass and you didn’t have the balls dunk it. That’s your loss, not mine. It’s the trolling I have a problem with. Anyone is free to have an opposing view. How about back it up with some data and methodology so it can be open to scrutinization?? Where are your actual data points? Truth of the matter is, you want to come off as fair, unbiased, and accurate, but every turn there is choice between quoting a high number vs a low number, you will choose the low number 10 out of 10 times. Even if it doesn’t make sense. Regarding Vig, you do realize Classic.com includes vig in auction results right? They include it in all auction house results except BaT. And don’t play dumb either because I’ve clearly mentioned this at least twice before. At the end of the day, we are measuring what someone PAID, so we can get an apples to apples comparison. Some auction houses have 12% Vig. Of course it’s convenient for you to leave it out. Some cars are due for an engine out ($8k value). I’m sure it’s convenient for you to leave that out as well. The more vague, the easier it is to manipulate “averages.” Nevermind the fact an engine out and Vig can add up to $15k (or more). I’ll tell you what. I’ll meet you in the middle. Post the spec of the car, mileage, and last engine out date. Post the auction result and the auction house’s vig. Let the reader decide for himself what should be included in the analysis or not. We don’t need your “averages.”
Auction fees are part of the cost of purchasing. They're not a trivial amount. So I disagree...they absolutely should be included in the overall sale price. That is what the highest bidder was willing to pay. It's not some magical figure that comes out of someone else's pocket.
“I've addressed the auction fees previously and don't agree that they should be included in a market analysis of car pricing. It doesn't matter how many times you say something, that doesn't make it true.” Take @MK355’s case for example. I recommended the Barchetta Berlinetta to him as I presented it as very “good value” (as long as he likes the specs). He bought the car for $172k days later. Now you come along and go “look at this driver 355 for only $150k. This must be a new trend.” On the surface, since he had just purchased the car, he might feel he over paid for my recommendation. Who knows?? Now I feel obligated to come in and break it all down so I don’t look like a fool. You bet I’m including BaT’s $7500 fee because that is exactly what he would have to come out of pocket to get the BaT car. $160k would be deducted from his bank account before shipping. $172k was deducted from his bank account before shipping the Barchetta 355. It’s an apples to apples comparison. How can the Vig NOT be included in an analysis??? It’s this type of illogical thinking is the reason in your mind the 355 market was “correcting” this whole time when in reality it was moving up. Maybe it’s time to question your own methodology so it coincides with reality better.
No flattening of older cars is evident down here in this part of the world, quite the opposite in fact. At least for the well looked after ones as they're getting really tough to find. 430's, 458's and 488's are taking a bit of a hit on the other hand. Nothing major, but certainly down a bit.
I thought Ferrari was supposed to supply parts in perpetuity for all models, as long as you were having work done at a dealer?
My comment was made in jest, which I understand is difficult to discern via text. But to put you at ease, I'm a driver and not a value guy. I feel good about what I paid for my car and whether it's worth $50k more or $50k less next week/month/year does not matter to me. I have already had things done to the car that "value guys" would likely sneer at (repainted a few panels, painted the brake calipers, F40 custom seats, etc), but I want the car the way I want it. I will drive the car almost every day putting 4-8k miles a year on it. None of these things are going to help the value. But I will enjoy the hell out of this car, and arguably get more for my money than many on these forums who prefer to look at their cars instead of driving them. @ShineKen your help sourcing the car/information is and was much appreciated.
Oh look! The Europeans must be reading this thread too! https://www.autoscout24.nl/aanbod/-0fdf5d76-9505-41b7-9b23-dcaf4cb4ecfc 98 Blu TDF manual Berlinetta. 32k mi. $195k USD (before shipping). Try buying this car for $150k . Image Unavailable, Please Login
I am just salty that Ken thinks 458’s are a dime a dozen and will not go up in value……. hahahahahahahahahahaha https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2014-ferrari-458-spider-23/ And it was Giallo!!!! Granted it was basically sticker on a 10 year old car, but I think that is strong value. Ken does not need approval from anyone. He is not looking for approval, nor does he care who buys are sells. What I value, is he cares immensely about the truth, the facts and the figures. He has an encyclopedic memory about the 355, its details, idiosyncrasies and values. I highly value his opinion and Datapoints. He will do anything to help someone who truly appreciates his efforts. I wish we lived closer! Would love to hang out and go for drives. Honestly, us dinosaurs of the car hobby are a dying breed. Not sure who replaces Ken someday or many of the others on here. They don’t make them like they use to, cars or us. In the end, we come here to share info, razz each other and understand the current market, its trends and the joy of a 355 at full song. Wsmatau. Don’t know you, hate the animosity around this thread and wish you would just buy a car. Who gives 2 F’s what you paid for it. I have bought, sold and enjoyed 9 of them (355’s), plus 360’s, 430’s and a 458 in the past 6 years. It is only money. Can’t take it with you when your gone and if your joy is being the cheapest SOB to buy a Ferrari in the past 3 years, then keep on doing you, but silly to be here, participate and yet never owned or bought a car. You should have bought long ago and bought even now! And I promise all of you, I have less money than most. I just figure it out, play banking roulette and have a really great life insurance plan for my family if I stuff one of these into a wall. Please for all that is right in this world, make Gated GTS’s with stupid low miles be worth more than Dino’s. Cheers! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
