News

F355 spider roof goes down but not up -beeps when trying to go dup.

Discussion in '348/355' started by Ari Paul, May 30, 2020.

  1. Ari Paul

    Ari Paul Rookie

    Sep 18, 2018
    34
    Full Name:
    Ari Paul
    Hi,

    So I just bled my F355 spider top system. I have rebuilt rams all over and a rebuilt valve. When I push the top button to go down, the roof goes down perfectly. But when I push the top button to go up (closed) all I get is a beeping sound. Nothing happens, just a "beep beep beep..." Any ideas??

    Thanks!!
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    5,136
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #2 Qavion, May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
    Why didn't you add today's message to your original post, Ari. so we know what you've done already? Are the primary rams not even working now?
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    5,136
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #3 Qavion, May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
    Is the roof going up with the manual (electric) override?
     
  5. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    5,136
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Who rebuilt your hydraulic actuators and hydraulic valve, Ari?

    Assuming the rams were serviced correctly and that the bleed was done correctly and that you suddenly have a new problem:

    Can you confirm the following:

    1) The configuration of your car did not change between the down movement and your attempt to raise the roof (windows, seats, handbrake, etc)?
    2) You reconnected all the things you disconnected (microswitches, etc) and refitted all the components you removed?
    3) Your battery still has enough power to raise the roof?
    4) You have tried moving the seats back and forth manually (perhaps the extra movement might shift the seat potentiometers to a better position)?
    5) If you move the seats back with the roof down, then try to raise the roof, do your seats move forward?
    6) If you raise both windows with the roof down, do they go down 2cm when you activate the "up" roof switch?

    IF your roof isn't working with the override switches, normally that would eliminate all faulty electrics except the handbrake switch, the up/down relays, the motor and the fuse. I'm assuming you haven't suddenly blown a fuse if the motor still attempts to move the roof down even when the roof is down. Also, my roof buzzer beeps at me if the ignition is on and the fuse has been removed (even when not touching the roof switch).
    I would swap the up/down relays to see if there is a difference. Note that the relay contacts in both relays are used when the roof is going up or down, so a faulty down relay could still cause a problem with the up motion. A relay swap should still work, however. Check to make sure the handbrake warning light goes on when it should.
    Note that the backup electric override switches won't operate the secondary rams.
     
    emac likes this.
  6. Ari Paul

    Ari Paul Rookie

    Sep 18, 2018
    34
    Full Name:
    Ari Paul
    Thank you Qavion for all your generous support and quick reply! I wish I saw it last night but I went to bed right after posing.

    The rams were all rebuilt by TopHydraulics. The manual (electric) override works to put the roof UP and down. I can use the override switch and the roof goes up no problem--the main rams activate perfectly. The bleed was done correctly. The procedure was followed 4 times (4 separate bleeds, the last two yielded no bubbles whatsoever.

    Confirming your list: 1)--Yes
    2)--I believe so, though not 100% sure.
    3)--Yes. New battery, plus I always activate roof with engine on.
    4)--No.
    5) No. Seats do not move at all when the top switch is pushed to put the top up (raised).
    6) My windows have not worked when the top is down since I got the car. The windows only seem to work when the top is up (closed; fully raised). When I tried to put the windows up with the top down, nothing happens. I touch the window switches and...nothing.


    Thank you for your suggestion of swapping relays! Please help me: where are these relays located and which is which? Are they the two relays located behind the fuses (30A and 15A next to the pump??). It's possible that I blew one fuse but not the other and I didn't check it...WAIT! I do remember that at one point the roof was going up with the switch but I heard a fuse blow...that could have been the sound of the fuse or the relay you mention....
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. Ari Paul

    Ari Paul Rookie

    Sep 18, 2018
    34
    Full Name:
    Ari Paul
    CONFIRMED! Both fuses were fine. I swapped the relays (next to the pump), and now the roof goes UP but does not go DOWN! When I push the main top button to go up, the top moves up perfectly, but when I push the button to go down, nothing happens and it beeps. It must be the relay that was at fault! The roof went up perfectly with the switch--just as the roof went down perfectly before the relays were swapped.

    OK, now where can I grab one of these relays on a weekend....???

    Thanks for all your amazing help Qavion, you've saved me thousands of dollars and a ton of headache!
     
  9. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    5,136
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #7 Qavion, May 31, 2020
    Last edited: May 31, 2020
    Interesting. The windows are reactivated when the top is down by the microswitch at the bottom of the left hand main ram i.e. on the slider, not inside the ram. Make sure it is open circuit when the roof is fully down. The plug can be tricky to remove to check the switch. You may need a small straight screwdriver to lever the retaining clip out of the way. I doubt this will cause the roof problem though, but check it anyway.

    Also interesting. I may have to put my thinking cap on and get back to you on this one (It's getting late here). I assume you reconnected the UP switch on the centre console :p

    Yes, the relays are located behind the two fuses. Don't worry about the relays. They will be working fine if the emergency switches raise/lower the roof. These relays are also used during emergency switch operation. Recheck the fuses of course. Does the motor still try to move the roof down when you push the normal roof down switch? The 30 amp fuse powers the motor. The 15 amp fuse provides some power to the Roof ECU from the battery, but the ECU also gets some power from the AC System fuse in the footwell (which requires the ignition key to be in RUN). The AC fuse was the one I was talking about earlier. I don't know why the ECU needs two power sources. The AC System fuse also powers the roof normal switches and the instrument lighting (and speedo/tacho), so you can check that fuse without looking at the relay panel.

    (EDIT:
    oops.. crossposted....

    Sounds like we have some success. Maybe you can get the windows working also by checking that microswitch.

    I hope the relay swap wasn't just coincidence. The relays should have been ok anyway if they worked with the emergency switches.)
     
  10. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    5,136
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #8 Qavion, May 31, 2020
    Last edited: May 31, 2020
    It seems like a regular Bosch relay (P/N 0332209159). If your local Auto store or auto electrician doesn't have Bosch, maybe Miro can come up with a substitute.

    Here are the specs on the Bosch relay.

    https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf/728729/Bosch/0332209159/1

    It's a 50 amp relay
     
  11. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    5,136
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Some of the electrical contacts of the emergency switches are actually used during normal roof switch operation. I've have mentioned this before in previous posts that it's possible that the emergency switches could stop normal roof operation. I should probably add this to my list of suggestions for people with roof problems.... i.e. exercise the roof switches a few times to see if normal operation is restored.
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    5,136
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Regarding Window operation with the roof down... If you can't get the micro switch at the bottom of the left hand primary actuator slider to go change electrical state with the roof fully down, try to adjust the switch so that the roller arm makes better contact (either by bending the arm or loosening the mounting bolts/screws and repositioning the switch). If that fails, disconnect the switch, and with the roof fully down, see if the windows work.

    If the switch does come change state and the windows still don't work, check that the window controller is providing voltage to the switch (on one pin of the switch plug) and that there is an earth on the other pin.

    If everything checks ok with the switch, then it sounds like a Window Controller problem.

    There are a lot of strange things going on with your car. Did TopHydraulics find no problems with your rams and F1 solenoid valve? Also, the relays shouldn't have fixed the "up" problem if the roof was working with the emergency switches. Sometimes I come across Ferrari problems which don't make sense. One may as well throw away the wiring diagrams and change random parts :p
     
  14. Ari Paul

    Ari Paul Rookie

    Sep 18, 2018
    34
    Full Name:
    Ari Paul
    SOLVED!!

    It was because I hadn't bolted down my secondary cylinders!!!

    I left my secondary cylinders unbolted. They were always in an extended position, just hanging on the ball joint pivot. This meant that the arm was always extended (they don't seem to suck closed, they have to be pressed close with the folding of the roof). This meant that the sensor in the secondary cylinder was never triggered, thus confusing the computer as to the position of the roof.

    I ASSUMED that the secondary arms would ((suck)) closed on their own, and set the sensor right...but I was wrong. Never assume... Anyway, that one time when I switched the relays: the reason that worked was pure COINCIDENCE! I remembered that I had pressed in the secondary cylinder manually (to listen for fluid) and thus this reversed the computer's assessment of the roof orientation.

    Well well well, now my roof functions perfectly up and down!!! But there is one thing I'm hesitant about: It seems to me like the pump should stop once the roof is completely up or down--then maybe followed by a beep. But in my situation it seems as though I have to remember to release the top button otherwise the pump will keep running and I run the risk of blowing a fuse. Can't remember if this happens only when opening or closing or both. Any final thoughts about that??

    Thanks so much Qavion again for all of your helpful thoughts. Even though those other things weren't the issue, I've learned a ton about this roof system from your advice.
     
  15. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    5,136
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Thanks Ari. My faith is partially restored in the wiring diagrams :p

    No, that is why the secondary cylinders don't retract the top part of the roof when the roof is going down. It's up to you to manually pull the roof back to activate the buzzer.

    In theory it should at least stop the pump. I thought that was the function of the switch in the left secondary actuator. I usually let go of the up switch before full closure anyway to stop the roof slamming into the top of the windscreen. I don't know if there is an adjustment for that. Maybe our actuators are not fully extending even with the roof closed. Do the locating pins on your roof front rail align with the holes in the windscreen top rail? I'm wondering if the pin location affects the ability of the secondary actuators to reach full extension.

    Any luck with your windows?

    Did TopHydraulics remove the bend in your actuator?

    My pleasure. Perhaps you can give me some tips when I decide to bleed my roof. I've never actually done it yet.... I've only replaced the canvas and played with the electrics.
     
  16. Ari Paul

    Ari Paul Rookie

    Sep 18, 2018
    34
    Full Name:
    Ari Paul
    #13 Ari Paul, Jun 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
    The windows work perfectly now. They go up and down when the top is up or down.

    The pump continuing-to-run issue could be as simple as a faulty sensor in the windshield attachment hole (roof up) or the underside of the left main cylinder (roof down).

    Top Hydraulics did a superb job and they fixed my cylinder back to new. They could not re-bend the cylinder, but they replaced it for a very nominal charge.

    You MUST bleed your system. That is the main reason, by far, these things start failing. In fact, that is like the #1 thing any owner should do ASAP. My old fluid was as thick as honey, while my new fluid was as runny as water (i am not exaggerating-- this is the truth). It is all that friction with old gummy fluid that stresses all the components of the system out. Then there is the speed and the smoothness: My roof operation is now 3x faster than before, and smoother. Bleeding it is actually really really simple and since you're a smart person, I could just briefly explain the principles to you in a few paragraphs and you would grasp the whole process without having to go by one of those dreadful 27 step guides. But if you want the guide, this is what I used and it was helpful: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/procedure-to-cure-a-355-spider-roof-that-does-not-close-properly-due-to-old-fluid.316148/

    Florida355, if you're still around, thanks.
     
    Qavion likes this.
  17. TTG

    TTG Formula 3

    Jun 11, 2002
    1,551
    East Hanover, NJ
    Full Name:
    Todd Gieger
    I LOVE my car but the 355 top thing is such a pain in the ass it's ridiculous - had the same problem 15 years ago and had it fixed - honestly if I ever have a problem again, I am going to just eliminate that whole sequence BS that you have to go thru to get the top up and down - my son's Miata has two of the similar top locks by the visors and all you have to do is unclip both sides and throw it back and it's done and you're off driving! Simple and no drama!
     

Share This Page