F360 Track Car

Sir, I suggest you contact Martin at Cavillino Motors. Based on my limited experience, the rear end of a F360 gets a bit squirrely when you start approaching its limits. Apparently, this was also true with the F360 Challenge cars, which is why Martin (and others) would fit them with wings to settle them down. There are also a few tricks with respect to suspension set up that help.

Dale

 

I take mine to the track.. I have a 360 modena, all stock.. and it does great.. it's squirelly though.. meaning you have to know how to drive the car..

I actually have a video of me taking out for the first time on the track... after I have been driving an M3 all day.. I didn't realize the throttle lift oversteer of the modena.. It requires someone who knows how to handle a car on the track and is ready for it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGwCWqC1XwY

Mind you I am a decent driver this was just me not ready for the modena's characteristics.. since then I havenot made a mistake like this..

I think what is cool about the modena, is that with sport mode on and traction control on.. you still have to watch yourself as it does not save you at all..

if you get a 430 and keep it in race mode you will likely keep the machine in control far more effectively.. where as the 360 requires more skill and attention to drive at the limit.. which CAN be more rewarding..

 

I tracked my 360's and 430's extensively. I also instruct for local car clubs.

The rear end gets ESPECIALLY loose during hard, straight line braking. The thinking is that the front suspension is on or near the bump stops, and once the front compliance is gone, the rear gets loose (and I mean scary, scary loose).

Otherwise, I don't think the rear of either car is really that tricky to manage through corners, though the can get away from you--as can anything. You have to be aware of managing your weight transfer from acceleration to braking if you have to do this while turning.

They also respond to a "touch" of trail braking to get the fronts to bite at the start of a turn.

The stock iron brake pads are not sufficient if you are running hard. I swapped to Ferodo 2500's, which were acceptable on the street and held up on the track (given that I was not braking from high speed at 10/10's because of the instability issues). Make sure you bleed the system and put fresh high temp fluid in.

The 430, with more torque and the e-diff, is a little easy to drive, but in some respects a little less satisfying.

The cars are easy to heel-toe, and I loved the 6 speed on the track.

I ultimate like my Lotus Exige better as a track toy, but the 360/430 are a hell of a lot of fun on the track. Just remember, almost all insurances do not cover any incident on the track--if you can't afford to walk away from the value of your car you should reconsider your plans.

Scott

 

Just don't back off on a high speed corner!

 

I haven't found the 360 to be twitchy at the limit like many have said. It won't be as forgiving as your M3, but it's really nicely balanced. I have no experience in a lotus, but I'd imagine it similar from what my friends say. The 430 handles better, and has more power, but the extra weight was noticeable to me. The stradale is better out of the box for sure, but the obscene cost of brake consumables and limited track tire choices eliminated it for me. And, the unique carbon pieces are a lot more to replace if you have an off.

The 360's drawbacks for the track are it's brakes, and excessive engine and transmission temperatures, engine bay temperatures, precats in the headers. Another biggie is the difficulty in creating a harness or rollbar, and if you're tall, mounting one piece seats to accommodate a helmet.

It all depends on how much you want to track the car, and how hard you plan to drive it. Most of the Ferrari guys buy challenge cars when they get to a skill set where, say, most Porsche DE guys start modifying their street cars to handle heavier track use.

 

Note: I am an F355B pilot, and I have used this car to become a driving instructor in the Texas region.

The very nice things about the Ferraris as track cars is that if you leave them on street tires, they don't need anything other than comes with the car. I am surprised at the comments of dwe8922 who finds 360 overheat. My F335 never did. I have driven my F355B for 72 minutes in a single stint (1 full tank of gas) in the heat of Texas summers (102dF) with the oil temp at 285dF and the water in the 218-220 range. A single cool down lap leaves both temps at completely reasonable temperatures. I am not *****-footing around, either, driving within 2 seconds of the lap record most of the time.

Nor have I found brake pads and rotors excessivly expensive. I get 5 race weekends on a set of pads (4 corners: Ferodo DS2500), and about 30-40 race days on a set of rotors, and 5 race weekends and maybe 5K miles on a set of S03s. Compared to the rotor/weekend the Vettes consume, I don't think its that bad of a consumable. But maybe 360s are higher in this department.

There are a couple of point to consider that make Ferraris different than Vettes, M3, Porsches as track cars. The Ferraris are very sensitive to ride height, a couple of millimeters on the rear ride height can change an understeering pig into an oversteering pig. Luckily, factory ride heights work extremely well.

Oversteer/understeer is controlled by rear ride height (up give more oversteer, down gives understeer).

There are two issues at the front, a high speed brake instability, and a steering input instability. The first is encountered when the front ride height is too low*. The front end goes down, the rear end up, and the center of aerodynamic pressure moves from the tail to mid-car. This takes downforce off the rear and adds grip at the front.

The second is a characteristic of the roll centers on the front and rear. As one dials in steering, the fronts continue to develop optimal traction, but the rear end looses a couple of percent in the traction department:: until you get on the power, at which time, the fronts shed grip and the rears gain grip and the car becomes marvelously balanced. In NASCAR this is called forward bite. Ferraris like to be driven into, through, and out of turns on power--and they are faster that way. Until you understand the effect, and have developed the hand speed to keep the nose in front of the car, get the braking done in a striaght line. After you learn, you can steer the car under brakes so you don't have to use as much steering wheel to enter turns (like esses). The twitch was put there for drivers who understand the chassis dynamics well enough to use it to their advantage.

Then there is an issue in common with Porsche 911s. The Pcars are always comitted to a turn when power goes on, you cannot lift, all you can do is steer and pray. The Ferraris are slightly better in this regards as you can back down a little bit; maybe 5%-8%-ish, but take you foot out of it, and ..... Along with this characteristic, there is a zone when the car is turning at an optimal rate, if you take throttle out the car will oversteer, if you add throttle the car will oversteer, yet at that exact speed, the car remains perfectly balanced. Listen to the car and find this speed for those long mid-speed 180 degree carousels (T9 TWS).

 

Interesting. I'd like to hear more. When you say "steer the car under brakes" are you talking about trail braking? Or are you talking about pushing the front end with the gas?

Dale

 

all you have to do to see an example of this is scroll up and watch my youtube video

 

I´ve tracked both my 360 and CS. I also have many, many laps in the 430 and scud. Also a few laps in 430 challenge cars.

360 or 430 is imo no option for a track junkie. Only the CS or Scud will do. Coming from a M3 maybe a 430 with racing seats, R-tyres and cc brakes will do.

430 and scud are easy to drive fast. CS is harder and more fun. You can feel it is a very light car. To track a CS or Scud you need to change nothing, brakes are amazing on both cars. Balance under straight braking is not a problem ever as long as the surface is decent. Trail braking is a must to carry good speed into a turn.

You also have different settings for the ASR in all four cars. Don´t turn them off before you really know what you are doing.

However you will need a decent budget for these cars. CC brake discs are VERY expensive, pads as well.

Only F1 tranny on the CS and Scud.

Ranking the cars for track imo is CS, Scud, 430, 360.

Did you ever think about the Porsche 996 GT3mk1 ? It´s a great car for the dollars. great fun and faster then a 360, not far from a 430 on a tight track.

 

As far as I can see you are to aggressive at the throtle into the turn, then you panic and completely release it. That would make any car spin, basic car physichs.
Tha ASR in sports will save you from very basic misktakes. Like to much power to early out of a turn.

 

Short course at TWS (1.8 miler): Turn4; You leave the medium length straight between T2 and T3 under brakes from 115-ish towards 80-ish towards the right. Off the brakes, back up to maintenance throttle, give it gas for 0.3 seconds and roll the car into T4.

T4 through T8 are a set of Esses with 140-feet between each turn.

In this set of esses, you can roll the steering wheel 90 degrees left then 90 degrees right at maintanence throttle and cruise through, or you can roll the steering wheel 50 degrees left and right and give the car a dose of brakes (25%) and have the car enter the turn giving it slightly more than enough gas to counteract the loss of speed due to braking. So you move the steering wheel less (just ofer 1/2 as much) and use the brakes to bring the tail around, then use the gas to plant the rear and head towards the next turn. The 5 turns in the esses are about 1 full second faster under brakes and gas than under cruise.

This is different than trail braking, although it uses the same characteristics of the suspension.

 

Thanks. Would you mind backing it up a bit to T1 - T2 - T3 on the long course? I have attached a pic so folks can follow along with Mitch. (Sorry, I bet you hate that.)

I have run this with a Stradale and a Maranello. Definitely two different ways of skinning the same cat.

Dale
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I have tracked my 430 but am much better with my 911. Yes, the 430 is fun on the track, and the high speeds you can get on the straight sections are intoxicating, but give me the 911 overall. It seems more stable to me, and it fits me better. Racing seats, harness, rollbars, roll cages, and most any track parts are also more readily available for the Porsche. And, if you do not replace the seats in the Ferrari you may have head clearence problems with your helmet on. The Porsche is also much cheaper to repair when/if you have that "off-track" experience.

 

Have you gotten in a 360 with your helmet on ? I am 5'11" and cannot sit in a 360 with NON-motorized seats and my helmet on. I do have a longer than normal torso. (The non-motorized seats don't allow you to lower the seat.) This was a determining factor in my purchase, so I got a 360 with power seats. Still the left side of my head hits the left side of the ceiling and it's pretty annoying. Something to consider.

I have tracked mine pretty extensively, and basically came to the realization that I was going to smash it into very small little bits if I kept it up. So, I bought a 20 year old $15k porsche 911 that had been converted into a full race car. Now, I track the 911 and race it regularly. The 360 gets to come out still 1-2x a year for kicks and grins.

My daily(and occasional track car) is an SMG M3-e46, and is a totally different beast than the 360 or 911.

Driving at 7/10's and above...I would say that the 360 is an advanced drivers car, the 911 is an intermediate drivers car and the M3 is a beginners car. Don't get me wrong and I am not dissing the M3(I love mine) , but it's just a much more stable and easier car to drive at speed. Driving the 360 at 9/10's? You'd better be a damn experienced driver. Really experienced.

Want to see how good of a driver you need to be to drive a 360/430 at 9/10's and 10/10's?
Watch this video. Make sure to watch his hands on the steering wheel. Flat out impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7rEFxUxxpU

Hunter

 

That is more playing then trying to do a very fast lap. He is hitting the accelerator very aggressivly in some turns and then countersteer, that´s called playing. If he only tried to do it fast it would look much smoother. The 430 is quite easy to drive fast as long as you don´t have all systems off.

 

Note the track I described in the previous post is the 1.8 mile course not either of the 1.9 mile courses (which are rarely run). For the Stradale, you could add a couple of MPH to each of the given figures below. For the Maranello, subtract 1 or 2.

{Note: this is not the "club" line I (have to) teach when DIing}

Comming down the front straight, my F355B gets up into 6th gear (ran out of revs in 5th) before comming down off the banking just past the pit wall where the entrance to turn 1 is flatest. You are entering the turn at 161-162 MPH and go to 10%-12% brakes while gently decreasing the turn radius trying to get to 92 MPH at the turn in point for T2. Thus you have a 300 yard long radius turn where you are braking slighlty and with no margin for error. If you don't brake hard enough you won't make T2 and you will leave the track pointing forwards, and if you brake any harder the back end will come out from under the car and you will leave backwards. EFR showed me this technique. So T1 starts out at the inside grass between the NASCAR track and the pits, has a 300 yard gentle bend to the outside of T2 at the orange box, with a large portion (> 35%) within a few feet (inches) of the outside edge of the T1-T2 track.

As you come up to the orange box but some 10 yards in front of it, you have desended below 92 MPH and at this point you add a slight amount of left steering and start to roll on some throttle in 4th gear, a little more than maintanence throttle. At the orange box you have all the steering dialed in to reach inside the T2 apex and continue to roll on throttle to balance the car into and out of T2. About 10 yards before T2 apex you are at full throttle and this throttle is keepign the car from clipping the inside apex curbing. You have chosen your track out point and are visually trying to pick up the braking point for T3 down the short shoot. The car should track out at the end of the outside curbing at T2 and naturally point towards the braking point at T3 down the shoot. By choosing 4th gear at the entrance you avoid the 3-4th shift in mid corner and 4th carries you all the way to T3.

As you come up on the braking point of T3 you brake a little early (7-10 yards) for the 1.8 mile course compared to the 2.9 mile course because T3 is taken completely differently. On the 1.8 mile course, T3 is a throw-away corner--basically part of the esses to come. The important part, here, is to make sure you don't loose too much speed entering T4. {On the 2.9 mile course, the trick is to use every single iota of track to get all the speed down the short shoot that follows. I often have the F355 a little oversteering at this point, using what would be T4 tarmac as trackout track on the long course.}

The "club line" is a different technique for the novice drivers to learn before trying the faster and less tollerant lines. This line comes down the banking in the center of the tarmac in T1, you get the car pointed twoards the radio/TV tower and brake hard in a straight line down to your chosen speed (85-ish). Then you cruise forward until you see the organge box and start setting up for T2 as above. Thus, here, the braking zone is perfectly straight and takes place at the inside of T1-T2 tarmac. This is the maximal safety version. This line is at least 1 full second slower than the above line in this one turn all by itself.

 

You are getting some great advice. Everyone is spot on with their advice. The real question here is" how much are you going to use the car at the track and what's your budget?"

 

Mouse, if the M3 is short in the headroom department, the 360 will be worse. My previous main track car (before the Lotus) was an E36 M3. Fit fine in the M3, fine in the Lotus, but my helmet hit the side (not the top) of my 360's. Not horrible, but not bad.

 

The CS is superior in feeling and handling at track compared to a 430. Difference is huge as well as funfactor. You end up with basically the same lap times though.

Modena has only steel brakes. They are not bad, but compared to a CS they feel very ordinary.

I´m 189 cm´s, I have only minor problems to fit in a 360 with helmet. Moderate problems in a challenge car and no problems in the CS, 430 or Scud.

360 do have ASR. Normal, sport and off.

 

I had a 360 F1 and took it to the track often. With a few simple changes it became a wonderful track car. Put on a set of Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires. Change brake pads to Ferrodo DS2500, and brake fluid to Castrol SRF and you can hammer all day! The brake pad and fluid changes prevented the brakes from boiling and becoming mushy. The tires improved grip tremendously. Make sure to get an F1 trans for the track! That's where they really shine. Also make sure to install clear bra or you will be repainting the front soon. I sold that 360 a few years ago and recently found myself looking for another track car. I could think of only one thing better, a CS.

Here's a video of my first track day with the CS earlier this year. You can get a feel for how well the F1 gearbox works on track. Ahead are a 997 GT3 on slicks and a T1 prepared corvette, also on slicks. It had rained earlier and this was my first dry session in the car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCjyOyayZ5Y

 

I would go with either a CS or a 430. I would upgrade the pads(Pagid? and the brake fluid (super blue), buy a spare set of rims with Hoosier A/R6's (DOT tire). You will have a blast.

If you were racing or going more than 12 times a year; I would strip out the M3 make it KONI Challenge spec and hire a driving coach.

At one point, I was just like you. I was tracking 4-6 times a year with a Ferrari with upgraded brakes, tires, etc. Then the racing bug bit me!

I decided to by a race car, a 355 Challenge.
I started racing.
Then the full size trailer, timing equipment, tools, slicks, racing coach, tent,chairs and it goes on and on,on,on.
Now I want to race a 430 challenge.

Here is some video.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyUzFpUVIhA

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eizf3A2Vpac

Flame suit on : A 355 Challenge is faster than a F430 with street tires on shorter tracks i.e. Fiorano.

 

dude, stay on the gas