The real F40 with VIN 90969? (2nd is 85397) | FerrariChat

The real F40 with VIN 90969? (2nd is 85397)

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Aircon, Jan 29, 2021.

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  1. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
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    Mark McCracken
    If i am correct, from the photos:
    what we have here are two F40, physical cars, both for sale right now - one for sale in Australia and one for sale in the UK - both very distinctively different - but with the same chassis number, but different assembly numbers?
     
  2. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 23, 2003
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    Melbourne, Australia
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    Peter
    Yes
     
  3. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    22,737
    #5 Marcel Massini, Jan 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
    Chassis #90969 has Assembly #08317.
    Assembly #02475 is for Chassis #85397.
    Either somebody mixed up photos or one of the cars is using the wrong identity.

    The blue chassis ID tag clearly is a reproduction tag with incorrect fonts but strangely it seems to have the Classiche logo..........
    Is somebody using incorrect paperwork? Somebody did not check where the other car is?
    Somebody did not verify the assembly number with the actual chassis number?

    85397:
    Assembly #02475.
    Engine #22520.
    Gearbox #100.
    Body #46.
    9 May 1990 build start.
    5 June 1990 completion date.
    Delivered new to Autoterminal S.p.A., on to Sa.Mo.Car. S.p.A. in Rome, later to Japan.

    90969:
    Assembly #08317.
    Engine #28645.
    Gearbox #487.
    Body #356.
    6 September 1991 build start.
    3 October 1991 completion date.
    Delivered new to official dealer M. G. Crepaldi Automobili S.a.s., in Milan, Italy.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  4. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

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    thanks Marcel, wow this could open a can of worms!
     
  5. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    #7 PAUL500, Jan 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
    Hmmm whats the line in that song "one of these things is not like the other"!

    Of the two, the blue car is very fishy, and with links to Japan for that assembly number its wearing, then it does not bode well.

    Possibly taken the VIN/ID of the red Aussie car to get it across certain borders at some point in the past, it seems both VIN numbered cars have been in Japan prior.

    I take it that 85397 is not one of the known "missing" cars then? they all did seem to end up in Japan! Maybe its last owner is going to have a nice surprise if it did vanish one night.

    Have Classiche been duped or is that documentation also suspect? not a very good clone if it is one if they did not even bother to remove the wrong assembly number!

    The power of the internet strikes again, just like the Harrods F1 LM that is wearing the UK registration number of the missing Brown Mexican example!
     
  6. lord.brett

    lord.brett Formula 3

    Nov 26, 2006
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    Thank you Marcel.

    Strange, indeed, one can believe that one of the cars is using the wrong identity because there is no photo mixing.

    On one of the photos from the pistonheads website, we can see the chassis plate on the steering column with the end of the sequence B000090969 in the reflection of the odometer.

    https://img.pistonheads.com/LargeSize/ferrari/f40/cat-non-adjust/ferrari-f40-cat-non-adjust-493873385-36.jpg

    On another photo, we see that the support of this plate is not correctly placed.

    https://img.pistonheads.com/LargeSize/ferrari/f40/cat-non-adjust/ferrari-f40-cat-non-adjust-493873385-38.jpg

    We can clearly see that the car in question is azzuro blu.

    Anyway, even though I'm French, an F40 is red not blue France.
     
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  7. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    i must be missing something....

    the red one in the photos has a tag that says 90969, but the ad says the vin is ZFF67NH1234567811.

    could this be an errant photo mixed in?

    why would they state a different vin in the description than in the photos?
     
  8. Ferrari27

    Ferrari27 Formula Junior

    Jul 5, 2010
    866
    Euro F40s are all ZFFGJ34B0000xxxxx. The ZFF67NH number is a made up one: a method that some dealers use to avoid putting the correct one in their ad. Seems a bit pointless when they then post a picture of the actual one.
     
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  9. lord.brett

    lord.brett Formula 3

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    ZFF67NH ...?
    Hmm ...
    So the red is a 458 Italia
     
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  10. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    If either of those have genuinely only done less than 10k then they have had very hard lives, or I am a monkeys uncle.
     
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  11. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    i see. i did not know that and was just looking at the last 5 digits.
     
  12. Ferrari27

    Ferrari27 Formula Junior

    Jul 5, 2010
    866
    Ross. There is no reason why anyone should know this! Someone (with far more knowledge and experience than me) recently described Ferrari chassis numbers as nonsense. He was probably right but it is nonsense that keeps some of us (including him!) entertained, occupied, and off the streets.

    Most dealers in the UK will either keep the number a secret or will make it well known when they advertise a car. I do not know what they base this decision on. The rest of the world do things their own way but it seems to be an Antipodean thing to put a totally made up number in an advert. As previously pointed out, if the number really was ZFF67NH then the car would be a 458 Italia but after that the structure of the VIN is all wrong: 1234567811 is just too good to be true. If this number was a 458 then we should be looking at the last 6 digits and not just the last 5. Ferrari are not at 567811 just yet but at the current rate of production it will only be a year or two! :)

    67811 would be way before even the earliest F40 prototype and is, in fact, a US spec 328 GTS (ZFFXA20A0H0067811)
     
  13. Birel

    Birel Formula 3

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    I think assembly number 02475 was seen on a mysterycar being rebuilt in Melbourne after a substantial accident. That number correlates more to an F40 in the 855xx chassis range rather than 90969. Where is the "blue car" ? Interesting.....
    Apparently the Graziani car doesn't have a service book but Zagame Classiche Certified it 6-7 years ago.
     
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  14. Birel

    Birel Formula 3

    Sep 12, 2005
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    More:- Now I can see blue car seems to be in UK now, but where did they get the Australian delivery information from, neither car was sold new in Australia. Maybe it is correct both cars have been through Japan at some time and a name Akihiro Kabe comes to mind. In October 2012 a car was advertised in Japan claiming to be 90969. The current owner of red 90969 in Sydney could confirm if that car was ever in Japan.
    I think the blue car is facing HUGE problems and is likely a rebuild after a massive accident. If it has been done again by Zanasi then of course it will be perfection and as good as new. However, everything points to its chassis number 90969 being false.
    Good luck sorting this one out !!
     
  15. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    On the 12 November 2015 I was in Maranello and met with Marco Zanasi, in their workshop ( out the back, in the post paint assembly area ) there was an F40 that they painted blue for a UK client. We discussed the colour and he felt it did not suit the car. Sorry, no photo.
     
  16. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

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    Macel quoted it above in post 3704......

    85397:
    Assembly #02475.
    Engine #22520.
    Gearbox #100.
    Body #46.
    9 May 1990 build start.
    5 June 1990 completion date.
    Delivered new to Autoterminal S.p.A., on to Sa.Mo.Car. S.p.A. in Rome, later to Japan.
     
  17. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

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    #19 275GTB, Jan 31, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
    that could have been this car you saw, I am assuming it is a different car to 90969 discussed above, as its first registered in 1992

    Is This Blue 1992 Ferrari F40 Beautiful or Sacrilegious? (roadandtrack.com)

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  18. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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  19. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    #21 PAUL500, Jan 31, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
    Wasn't there one involved in a really big accident that involved a fatality in Aus a good few years go? could the blue one be associated with bits from that example given what Birel has written above?

    All very murky, and how have classiche issued documents twice for the same chassis to two different approved inspectors without checking up on such first? as both cars claim to have the docs to hand, only one of these cars can be carrying the correct engine/gearbox/body numbers etc

    edit

    Just did a bit of googling and my mind was not playing tricks, plus a Japanese connection as well!

    I think people can start joining the dots here

    https://aussieexotics.com/forum/events/cannonball-run-1994-2598.0.html
     
  20. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

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    the other blue F40 being discussed also has a stripe, but slightly different in design to the Tri-colour one on this car. The stripe can be added at anytime, even if lacquered in to feather the edges.
     
  21. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

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    the engine and gearbox numbers are definitely going to help with this puzzle, they may not solve it, but should they add some clarity and substance to at least one of the cars in question.

    I have said it many times, Classiche is a waste of time and money, the only benefactor is the factory given the insane prices they charge.
     
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  22. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2017
    6,200
    I don’t agree at all. It’s a product/service that many enjoy. I’m sure there are things you own that give you pleasure that others would consider a waste of money. The Red Book is beautiful, and very nicely presented. Despite what some think, it was a rather extensive and months-long examination to be certified. It further adds provenance, and, like it or not, it adds greater value. Many think and expect Classiche to be something it never professed to be. It isn’t a concours award, not does it claim to be. It also isn’t an historical record. It’s fairly straight forward (I’ve attached the official criteria). I have both my cars certified and I faithfully have them recertified annually, which many don’t. I love having the book. So, in the end, that’s really what matters.
     

    Attached Files:

  23. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    How do you know if another car using your VIN is not floating around also with that lovely red book? that is the point being made, its clear from these two cars that it can and does happen, so not such a thorough inspection process as people are lead to believe it seems when it comes to buying a car with one included.

    Additional due diligence always required, don't just trust the provisional of a red book. Someone is going to lose a lot of money, that is if they can actually shift them on, even the genuine car is going to be tainted now whichever one it is.

    Also neither car could currently get re certified given their non factory specs, so that red book only represents a brief moment in time.
     
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