F40 brake development

i find it odd that the site doesn't tell anything of the owner/operator, just has you submit info to them (blindly!)......and it sounds a lot like they might just be adapting a hydro-boost type system, GM used such an electric-hyraulic assist, there are a few other manufacturers who have something similar.......i sure wouldn't submit blind to a site personal contact info, and partial VIN.....just IMO

 

To be honest, I'd just slap on 6 pot AP Racing monobloc calipers up front and 4 pot similar at the back.

Problem solved.

 

sort of, larger capacity (bore) front calipers would change the MC to caliper ratio, increasing the pedal travel range, but the total required force would be the same

i'm not sure if true, but there are some comments about the stock drilled rotors being an issue too

 

getting my popcorn...

 

I'm pretty sure this is ****** ******, who is a long-time Ferrari nut and FCA member in Houston. From what I know, which is little seeing how I have never driven a F40, his fix works very well.

YMMV, but I don't think you have to worry about ***** invading your privacy. In fact, I hope he doesn't mind me making this post!

Dale

PS On second thought, I'm gonna delete the name. ****** is a major privacy nut also!

 

You have to be a real ***** to think that the pedal effort is too high. How about some power steering while youre at it? Probably using the wrong pad. Try the new Performance Friction 7780.05.18.44. Be careful when you apply the brakes the first time, your dentures might go flying. Choose the pads for stopping power, not for low dusting and you might be suprised. Most people complain about the performance of the brakes at the track and this will only make it worse. Try wearing a driving sytle shoe with a stiff sole to keep your feet from hurting. They also transfer motion better. All the F40 rotors Ive seen are cracked around the holes on cars that get driven regularly. Maybe this system would have prevented that F40 crash in Houston. Did that car have the prototype system? Maybe it crashed testing it....

 

Might as well adapt the BMW electric power steering as well.

 

There were many ways to do this. Sounds like a stand alone version of a hydroboost using an electric pump. Ive never heard anyone complain about the pedal effort in an F40, only the track day performance when the brakes are used hard. The samb braking system used on the F40 was used on many performance cars of the era as well as current mid level cars such as the 350Z, WRX STI, and the EVO Lancer. Its a really common caliper and everyone makes pads for it. Whats different with the F40 is that the brake discs are really light. I havent found anyone that offers a replacement disc that is as light as the factory disc. That said, it really aids in increasing performance and handling due to its lighter weight. Any wheel chassis dyno will confirm the reduced performance when using a heavier brake package. It would be foolish for anyone to use the factory brake discs for a track event just due to the cost of replacement parts. There are better performing disc's available that dont ruin your pricey OEM parts. I dont know that boosted brakes would be better for track day events with the stock braking set-up since it would be easier to overheat them with less effort. They list a 6 piston Brembo brake kit on their chart. Ive never seen on of these. I have an 8 piston that uses a 378 mm rotor. I also have a pedal box with an improved motion ratio. Boosted brakes can increase the force ratio by up to 60X, but its not really addressing the performance of the braking system. It only makes the current system easier to operate. That might be adequate for some. I believe that there will be a small market for this modification. I dont know the cost, but I believe more people would rather have bigger brakes as opposed to lower effort brakes. With less people willing to modify their cars, I think its going to be a hard sell. I'm sure that lots of effort and resources went into this project.

 

I just use both feet

 

This system doesnt improve the performace of the braking system. It doesnt reduce braking distance, reduce fade, or increase brake torque. It wont increase the system capacity. For a track day event it will likely cause the brakes to overheat more quickly. All it does is make the brakes easier to use. You can add pads and rotors to a stock F40 and improve the braking performance considerably without changing the wheels. The same sized rotors can be used. It sounds like you are invested in this product. Are you going to have your F40 modified? Most people agree that the F40 brakes are well modulated for street driving. There are many pads that reduce stopping distance and require a lower brake effort. The original F40 pads are now more that 20 years old. If you dont like the unservoed brakes, you'll probably want carpet and sound insulation, radio and navigation, and power steering. Those are features of a GT car, not an F40. This system only reduces pedal effort. What does it cost?

 

I would like to make a few comments about the F40 Power Brake system being referenced here.

For those not familiar with the stock brakes on a Ferrari F40, it takes nearly 100 lbs of effort applied directly on the brake pedal to slow or stop an F40 under 1G of deceleration. A normal Ferrari is about 30 lbs. No other street car we can find to test is even close to an F40 with the required brake pedal effort (BPE). This power brake system simply reduces the amount of brake pedal effort required by the driver to make the car more fun to drive and safer.

1) To start with, the F40 wrecked here in Houston DID NOT have this system installed and WAS IN NO WAY being used for any such testing purposes.

2) That specific (now wrecked) F40 belonged to a friend of mine and he was having a system installed on his car as soon as an engine running issue was resolved. He is still intending to install a power brake system on his replacement F40.

3) There are several F Chatters who have both driven the demo F40 with the power brakes and some who have also bought one of these systems for their F40.

4) To say there is not a market for this system is not correct. Ask a simple question: Why are there so many F40's with Brembo Brakes? ANSWER: Because the owners were not happy with the stock brakes. To say ALL F40 owners will want the system is not true. There is a segment of the F40 market that will not modify their F40 and there is also a certian number of F40 owners who DO NOT EVEN DRIVE THEIR F40's. It is a personal choice to each F40 owner if they want better and safer brakes...

5) Everyone who has driven the demo car or bought a system is very impressed by how much better the car is to drive by simply reducing the brake pedal pressure by 75%. The car now feels like a scud 16M under braking!

6) The system does not put any additional stress on the calipers or rotors as suggested. It is the same amount of hydraulic pressure at the caliper under the same braking conditions, it is just less pedal pressure (or BPE) by the driver AND THAT IS THE POINT TO THE SYSTEM. What do you think that a brake booster system does on 99.999% of all cars sold for the streets? There is no difference.

7) MOST IMPORTANT: Note the testimonial on the first page of the F40 Brakes website: This testimonial is directly from an F40 owner who drives his F40 both on the street and occasionally on the track. He also races in and won the Ferrari F430 Challenge Series in the US. He always hated the stock brakes on his F40 (NOTE he refers to them as Death Brakes!) He was not impressed by the Brembo system solution; Bought an F40 Brakes Power Brake System and he likes the system so much, that he was willing to give a testomonial.

Finally, why has this not been advertized? This system has been in development for over two years and the patent was just filed a few months ago. Quite a few of you out in F Chat land have known about this for some time. As everyone can see from the website, that was also time consuming. There is now advertizing in FORZA Magazine and others to follow in the near future.

If you want to know more about the system, contact me and I will answer all of your questions. If you own an F40 and wish to demo the car with the system, I will accommodate you. If you are a shop and would like additional business for installation of a system, also contact me.

Thanks and be safe!!

 

Ok let me get this straight. The brake system is totally stock as far as the brake lines, calipers, pads, cooling ducts, discs, piston sizes, proportioning, and master cylinder. You stated that it applies the same pressure to the hydraulic system as a stock system. Is that correct? So if driver A (with the boosted set-up) applies 25 lbs to the brake pedal, he will stop in as short of a distance as driver B (with an unboosted system). So both cars stop in the same distance only driver B has to apply 75 LBS more force on the brake pedal. You are saying that your hero driver, who calls them the "death brakes", prefers the equal performance of driver A because he has to apply less pedal pressure. You didnt improve the braking performance, but now the brakes are acceptable? Am I clear? And you made no other changes to the car other than to install a brake booster? I have to believe that other changes were made at the same time. Where is the car with the 6 piston brembo set-up? I would just like to see a picture since I've only seen the an AP racing six piston set-up. All F40s come from the factory equipped with brembo brakes. You would have to agree, from points made in you own statements, that the stopping distance would be the same. This is true because the system pressure and all the components are the same as the stock set-up.

 

I never saw a claim the stopping distance was shorter. However having driven a stock F40 and the f40 with the brake booster, the modified brakes are a huge benefit. It is more a function of feel. It is much easier to feel the pedal under your foot when your are not mashing the pedal down to stop.

 

Read the ad. it clearly states many times "poor brake performance". Its inaccurate and misleading. It states that the brake system is a safety issue. It will be more of an issue when the brakes get locked up due to the lower brake force needed to apply the brakes. The statements made in that ad are inaccurate as they pertain to the words "brake performance". Read it again... What it should say is that if you have an underperforming driver you can turn him into an F1 racer. Clearly aimed at improving the performance of the driver and not the car. Lets call it a drivers aid. Stability control doesnt improve the limits or performance of the car, it corrects the drivers mistakes. Since this car is not equipped with ABS braking, your propensity to lock up the brakes will increase. With this system you will be able to apply an increased force to the master cylinder. It will only multiply the force applied by the driver. Does the system have the ability to limit brake system hydraulic pressure? Does it have the ability to limit mechanical force applied to the master cylinder? So if I put a driver in the seat that can leg press 1000 lbs, will he apply more clamping force that a typical 150 Lb driver? You bet. Its just a hydraulic pump. Force applied is turned into hydraulic pressure, simple engineering. Excess force translates into excess heat and that will easily overcome your ability to keep the brakes cool. People complain about the F40's brakes because they fade when driven hard. This system wont cure that, it will make it worse. How does the writer of the ad define "brake performance"? How about "pedal effort". How about testing it on a wet road? I bet you'll change your mind. There is a big difference between easier to drive and brake performance...

 

Maybe a simple suggestion, but why don't you test both systems and then post comments? (Or even better, if you have tested both systems.......)

I don't have an F40, but the system is very remarkable for drivability of the car, I am sure we can all find the specific benefits of each and every system and any potential downfall areas. However, I know of, personally, at least TWO cars fitted with this system and both owners are EXTREMELY satisfied with the how this changed their idea about how this car should drive.

I don't mean to question your input or ideas, but until you examine what the system is and how it works, it is hard to believe that you would be so quick to talk it down.

 

I had a chance to drive Grady's (512BLU) F40 with the modified brake system several months ago while he was trailoring his F40 through Alabama on the way back to Texas. It is a well thought out system that is truly bolt on and does not cut up the car so it can always be returned to stock. The performance of the brake system is very good. Much less pedal effort. It reminds me of driving my NSX.

I did not opt to use Grady's system simply because I like the F40 brakes in stock form even though his system is better. Personal choice, not performance choice.

Grady and his wife are good folks and enthusiasts.

Regards,

Drew Altemara
92 F40

 

Thanks Drew for your post. I am not going to name in a public forum all of the F Chatters who have driven or purchased a system. That will remain confidential. If they want to post something that is fine. Again Thanks Drew.

A few additional points. The concept was simple: SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCE THE PEDAL EFFORT TO IMPROVE THE BRAKES ON THE F40. In simple terms this is what the system does. ...and it does this very well, which is the biggest complaint about the F40; A very hard brake pedal.

I do not build this system and I did not engineer this system. Two years ago I started sitting down with brake system engineers at several major manufactures of high performance brake systems and explained exactly what I wanted to achieve. They built / build the system directly for me. These guys are engineers and this is all they do. The first comment they made is "That the brakes on the F40 are very large for the car's weight and it simply lacks a booster, so lets go from here...". They also commented that "they have never seen a street car with the BPE as high as the F40's".

I also want to thank this forum for all the inquiries that I now have on my website.

Good Job!

Have a Great Day and be safe!

 

Ok lets try this again. HOW DOES REDUCING THE PEDAL EFFORT IMPROVE THE PERFORMANCE OF THE BRAKES? Does it reduce the stopping distance? No. Does it reduce brake fade? No. Does it increase disc or rotor life? No. Does it increase brake torque? No. Those are brake performance issues. Pedal effort is a drivers comfort issue, not a performance issue. Your ad could easily say " I've developed a fix for the F40's poor brakes," when in fact you've only made it easier to use the "death brakes" as you have stated. Do you understand the difference? Doesnt matter if you like them better, its misleading when you say they perform better. Im sure that FNA would have an issue with you saying that they produced a system that was DANGEROUS , and a SAFETY ISSUE. If you went to the trouble of installing a booster, Im sure that the rest of the system is not completely stock. How about " Would you like brakes that are as easy to use as a Crown Victoria?" "We have a product for you!"

 

Wait. His Ad says that ??

I thought the Ad said "The stock brake system is the Achilles Heel of the Ferrari F40."

 

Chris Parr made the cover of FORZA with his F40 braking system mods....

I think Roland used a system similar to that....

Neither car retained the stock wheels/tires IIRC.

No point in bruising the arch of your foot.
Understandable the jumping from a 430Challenge to an F40 there would be a noticable difference. Good luck on the project, G.F.O.

 

There's a grammatical error in the first paragraph....should be "ever since"....in the last sentence.

Not "every since" as reads now...