I am thinking very hard about getting a F40 but I do have a few concerns that I hope people here can help answer. I heard a lot about how much left-leg muscle you need to press the clutch pedal. Exactly how hard is the pedal, relative to say Diablo SV or 550? How bad is the turbo lag? Like a 993 or 996 TT??? Adjustable Suspension: Does it work and does it require frequent maintainence and repair? How firm a hand do you need to change gear? I intend to use the car a lot on the street; hence these questions. I hope I will get some answers from people with real experience with the F40 as I will base on the opinion I gather here to make my decision.
1. If you have to ask about how hard the clutch is, you might want to join a gym... 2. Turbo lag? about as much as a hand grenade. 3. Adjustable Suspension? No US cars had this feature, euro spec only, I have no idea as to what issues you might expect. (A few US cars had this put on after it came to the US, IMHO a waste of time) 4. A firm hand to change the gears? same answer as question 1. An F40 is a handful, a very FUN handful! I am sorry, but before you even consider driving one, go to Skip Barber racing school, then buy a 355 or a 360 for a year, then you can buy a F40 and not kill yourself...
That would be an idea if he didn't already have an F50. I'm sure if he hasn't killed himself yet, he could handle the F40. Seriously Yimn, are you considering the F40 as a daily driver? Or just another toy that'll be exercised alot on the street? Daily driver, not a great idea I would bet.
uh, I know he has an F50.... Sarcasm is so hard to write on here.... The F40 is no more difficult to drive than his F50 except for the turbo hit... Since he is trying to get slicks for his F50 I am sure he has been to Skippy or Russels or Bondurants more than once! Us F40 guys have to poke jabs (in fun) at F50 and Enzo guys! I will make him a deal, I will let him drive my F40 if I can take his F50 for a ride! I know he would love a F40, and yes it is very streetable, since I have not driven an F50, I cannot say if it is more or less streetable than a F50. (my guess is a F50 is bit more street friendly) lets swap rides! Chris
I have an F40 with 30K miles. It has the Adjustable Suspension, LM brakes, 18" wheels and Euro seat belts. I also drive a '94 ZR1 Corvette and a Z06 Corvette. My favorite car to drive is the F40 BECAUSE it is a very RAW car. Lots of feed back. Manual steering and brakes. If you have to worry about the clutch, forget about it, the brakes are just as tough if not more so. (at least on my car) Every move in this car needs to be deliberate. The steering is heavy at slow speeds, yet a dream at high speeds. I like the adjustable suspension because you CAN drive the car anywhere without worrying about a speed bump or parking garage with a steep exit. I also like the Euro belts because they eliminate the "mouse track" seatbelts. Anything more than 1/2 throttle above 4000rpm in the lower gears will break the rear tires loose. Sure, floor it from 2500 in high gear on the freeway and it is going to need to spool up. Downshift to 3rd and do the same thing and you will be over 100mph before you know it. It fits about like the ZR1 corvette. My daily driver. My least favorite is my Z06. It is powerful, yet it has very little feel. The Brakes, clutch, and steering can easily be handled by a 90 lb weekling. Way too soft for my taste, yet O.K. to take out on a date. I drive my F40 any day of the week, but I wouldn't want to drive it EVERY day of the week. Hope this helps, Rick
Rick, do you know when the adjustable suspension was installed? Please correct if I am wrong, but my understanding was no US car had that suspension.... I love the statement "drive it any day, just not everyday!". I agree!
LOL Thanks! I have driven her in the rain. Pretty cool watching the aero effect on the water. As far as the install date goes. The best I can tell from invoices I have is Pre 1999. When you switch over to the Euro belts, to do it right you need to change the headliner also. Rick
I have got caught in the rain a few times, I run slicks during the summer, so rain and slicks on the interstate is pretty interesting! I got rid of the "mice" as well, I have euro seats and 4point belts, kinda a pain, but I do not feel safe without them... Are you going to Monterey? we have 4 F40's going on a tour down the coast, let me know if you want to join us... Chris
Driving the F50 is a wonderful pleasure. Very predictable and progressive. You could pull all the gears while holding a Coke between your knees and eating a cheeseburger. Raw is the perfect word for the F40. You best not have anything else going on then the turbo's light! I tried a new cam timing on the Alberta car (Zahir's) and was very happy with the results. Much improved off turbo torque with a smoother progression and dead smooth idle. Even raised Rolands eyebrow.... Dave
I agree with Dave, the new timing made a big difference between John's F40 and Zahir's. The 3 being here, I could tell the difference. I drove the F50 on the road and the track, and it's no comparaison with the F40 even stock. My wife can drive the 50 but no way my LM. Clutch is typical Ferrari, just watch when the turbo start to sing !!! Even the 996 twin sound mild next to the F40.. Roland F40LM
Would like to know exactly what was done to the timing. Are we talking cam timing or distributor timing?
I will leave that to Dave helms. I 'm just the test driver...I can tell the difference and where it is, but the what and how, is for the master to answer. Roland F40LM
Wow, thanks a lot for all the replies. Let me clarify, I am certainly not going to drive the F40 everyday but on like on weekend. It also seems to me F40 and F50 cannot co-exist because the two camps have a very different idea of what a good race car should be. I am totally neutral in this matter although I do prefer the F50 a bit more than the F40, for not having to work so hard to get the performance out (based on the opinion expressed here). IMO, I think the two cars represent two different times in car design that both have their merits and faults and that is why I love to own both to experience the differences. Having said that, I am relatively new to this hobby than many of your here and I am so used to the ease of driving in modern cars (993TT, 996TT, M3, 355, 550, 360, CS, Diablo) that honestly I am a little hesitant about getting a F40, after reading all your comments. I guess I might need to either borrow or rent a F40 for a week to experience it before I can make my decision (which is to swap my CS for a F40). Will keep you posted about the progress.
The best race car on the track is the one that is easy to drive and completely predictable. That being said the differance between the 40 and the 50 simply shows the evolution of the marque. We all get a thrill from the raw, unpredictable power the 40 gives, but the 50 gives near the same power in a controled package. Tubi headers, test pipes and muffler and advanced cam timing make the sound and the feel of a 50 an unbelieveable thrill. Every single sound the drive train gives off is experianced due to the engine / trans / rear suspension being hard bolted to the carbon tub. Raw parts of the 50 are the heat that comes into the cockpit via the top exiting radiator air duct, and the noise (a beautiful sound it is). Those that have watched the in car footage of the Calloway Vette at say Daytona can get a close idea of the drive train sounds, add to that the scream of the 12 cylinder engine and you have magic. The first thing that a passanger hears is the raising of the suspension to exit the parking lot, which sounds exactly like a commercial jetliner lowering the flaps on the tarmac. This sound usually makes the hair on the back of the passangers neck stand on end and visualize this thing getting ready for take off! Throttling it up through a couple of gears pushes you back in the seat much harder than any commercial jet could hope to do and the sound with the Tubi is very close to F1ish. The F50 engine is a beautiful design using only 1 gasket in the entire engine (stressed member, so gaskets would allow a flex point). Everything is oringed or Cooper ringed. It was a F1 design, which means a sprint engine, not a long life engine. Higher mileage will show some weak points. Cams gear wear from the Morse type chain was the most noteable wear point I have found in these engines. Another problem point is the intake track sealing. There is much unfiltered air going in those engines when left in stock form, although it is fairly easily modified to correct these problems. Speed, power and completely controlable, all used in the same sentence while talking about a single model is a very high compliment to any designer! I for one would never speak of the F50 as a second place car, I see it as every bit an equal to the 40. Dave
Well-written. It seems to me you have vast experience with F50. Maybe you can help me with the following. When I lift the suspension up going down to my parking space, there is this cracking sound coming from the front suspension when I turn the wheel. IS this anything serious or it is normal.
Not normal. I have had no suspension problems arise on the 50's, only those that were driver influenced. I have serviced a number of them, and rebuilt one of the first engines to fail. Dave
Dave, thks for the reply. One more question if you don't mind, how long does it take the engine to loosen up (break in)? My engine is still a bit tight after 1000km although all below 5000 rpm. Anyway to expedite the process?
Your engine should be well broken in by this point. All of the engines spent a good deal of time on the dyno at the factory and saw red line numerous times durning those runs. I did a great deal of research on the build process, as the manual has many mistakes that had to be "thought through". I was quite fortunate as John Amette was still with Ferrari at the time. He apprenticed with the Cooper race team while still living in England, and my race car back ground started in the 70's. At the time of the rebuild, no one at the factory was there durning the F50 build ups, but there were engnrs that John and I could bounce questions back and forth with. This was a truely wonderful learning experiance as I had never had any experiance with a stressed member, gasketless engine before. By nature of its design it is an extreemly stable package and doesnt suffer from many of the problems that a normal designed engine does. This makes the break in period far quicker, as the expansion and twisting forces are at an absolute minumim. The standard Ferrari engine, with its many aluminum castings has a very unique (and measurable) growth process as they warm up. Understanding all of these variables that the engine encounters durning its many phases of warm up, obviously fascinated me and I spent months researching and learning all I could on this, and bouncing these ideas off of John. The F50 block being cast iron, then hard bolting the many aluminum castings to it, at opposing angles, keeps all in line from cold to hot thus the limited amount of break in for the rotating parts. Ring break in with the Nikosil plated liners is fairly quick as well and has happened well before the mileage of your engine. In your position, I would change the oil fairly quickly (after a thousand miles or so), cut the oil filter and inspect the filter media for any particles. If all looks well here, let her rip! The red line, in both John's and my opnion, is set quite conservatively, and life in an F50 just begins at 6000 RPM. At this point I must publically thank John Amette for his tolerance and time with all of my questions in this area. The knowledge that can be gained with support like his is incredible. He is terribly missed in the Ferrari circles and is a huge gain to the Lamborghini camp. We all have strange fascinations in one way or another. You happened to hit on one of mine. Understanding the design of these engines is key to coaxing every ounce of performance out of them without turning them into a gernade. The IMSA 348 engine I just finished is a prime example of this. The credit goes to someone else, as I simply made small changes to a well designed build up that gave well upwards of 500 HP with stock block and heads. Bolt on a slide valve manifold and add gobs more to the HP figure, according to the original builder! Change the oil, inspect the filter, strap in tight, warm up the tires and the engine until you see good oil temp, and let it rip. Waiting to hear your reaction..... Dave
a N/A 348 with 500 HP? could this be run on the street? my god, if this would be street reliable, thats the most impressive output ive ever heard of....on a related note, Ive heard there are F50's around that are closer to 600 HP with mods, can that be right? maybe with new ECU mapping, higher redline, and new cams etc?
No way to the street, I have been working on trying to get it to idle below 2500 with little succes. This is the claimed HP by a very reputable builder. The engine I finished is reported to have started life in the Spice IMSA car. I have yet to put it on the dyno, but it has an incredible sound. All internal were replaced, but it still runs a stock (modified) crank.
Ive heard there are F50's around that are closer to 600 HP with mods, can that be right? maybe with new ECU mapping, higher redline, and new cams etc? I can very easily believe the 600 hp claim, but have no experiance with it. Consider the claimed hp figure for the stock 50, and then look at the fact that this has incredible low end torque for stop and go driving and meets federal emissions. Take the plug out of the exhaust, eliminate the flat torque curve and shoot for top end HP with larger cams and valves.... I do not know what went into the building of the F50 GT car but I spent some time looking it over on a trip to Mill Valley Ferrari when we were getting schooled on the 456M. Incredible car, but remember that was built as an enduro car. Eliminate the need for it to last days on the track, build a sprint engine, and you can add a substancial amount to the HP figure that is claimed for that car as well. Way over 600 I would believe, but praticle and streetable, no way! Durning the 50 build I was doing, one of the engnrs at Ferrari said they tested the engine at well over the stock red line. As with many of the Ferrari's, they are still able to flow enough air to keep making more power above the red line, but to what end? Life span decreases exponentially after a certain rpm.
